Extra timetable activities

In the working timetable there are a few labels such as stops for operating reasons, stops for token exchange (etc), which don’t feature in the SimSig timetable editor.

Would it be possible to consider adding some of these?

The reason I ask is on the KX sim there are a few ECS trains which have an arrival and departure at Drayton Park to cater for the power changeover. If there was an activity such as “stops for operational purposes” this could then be treated in the same way as stops to set down, namely that the train could then depart early.

I hope this is something which might merit consideration as a feature.

What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?

What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?

Drayton Park operational reasons as you know are for power supply change, done during a normal passenger stop, if there are any ECS they still have to stop regardless.

From a timetabling point of view, a booked stop is a stop regardless of what reason the stop is for.

I agree, however giving the reason for the stop (as the real WTT does) is more informative, and allows the situation to be more realistically handled. In the Drayton Park example, in practice no train is going to wait until the booked time - once the reason for the stop is complete, in this case the power change, the train will simply accept the signal and continue.

The same would apply for something like a token exchange.

DavidSplett in post 137898 said:

I agree, however giving the reason for the stop (as the real WTT does) is more informative, and allows the situation to be more realistically handled. In the Drayton Park example, in practice no train is going to wait until the booked time - once the reason for the stop is complete, in this case the power change, the train will simply accept the signal and continue.

The same would apply for something like a token exchange.

Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'.

Then for your example at Drayton Park:

Use WTT booked arrival and departure times (say 05:22 05:25H)
Tick set down only
Set a dwell of 3 mins for that call in the Drayton Park location timings tab

If the train arrived early at 05:18, it will depart at 05:21.
If the train arrived late at 05:28, it will depart at 05:31.

Bill

bill_gensheet in post 137905 said:

DavidSplett in post 137898 said:

I agree, however giving the reason for the stop (as the real WTT does) is more informative, and allows the situation to be more realistically handled. In the Drayton Park example, in practice no train is going to wait until the booked time - once the reason for the stop is complete, in this case the power change, the train will simply accept the signal and continue.

The same would apply for something like a token exchange.

Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'.

Then for your example at Drayton Park:

Use WTT booked arrival and departure times (say 05:22 05:25H)
Tick set down only
Set a dwell of 3 mins for that call in the Drayton Park location timings tab

If the train arrived early at 05:18, it will depart at 05:21.
If the train arrived late at 05:28, it will depart at 05:31.

Bill

Has the coding for set-down only changed, then? My recollection is that set-down only allows the train to depart early but does not force it so that on random occasions even when the set-down only box is ticked the train still waits for booked time. There has been a suggestion that there should be an additional option to force a train to depart as soon as it is ready to avoid the embarrassing situation of something like a RR move with set-down only times being allowed to start early then sit down across the throat while waiting for booked time.

I’m less familiar with how the “stops to allow passing movement on single line” works, but this could certainly be included as well.

DavidSplett in post 137907 said:

I’m less familiar with how the “stops to allow passing movement on single line” works, but this could certainly be included as well.

I believe that is simply a "by the way, this is why there's a longer than usual dwell time here" for scheduling purposes, and a "by the way, you're supposed to pass that other train here" to the signaller. But as far as the driver - and thus SimSig train - is concerned, it can just be a passing time (assuming no other reason to stop).

Let's ignore old US paper "signaling" where the form says something along the line of "Wait at X for the passage of [lead] engine number Y". In this case it's an actual instruction with very bad consequences if ignored, like a signal indication.

bill_gensheet in post 137905 said:

Maybe just rethink the 'set down only' tick box as being 'depart after dwell time'.

Then for your example at Drayton Park:

Use WTT booked arrival and departure times (say 05:22 05:25H)
Tick set down only
Set a dwell of 3 mins for that call in the Drayton Park location timings tab

If the train arrived early at 05:18, it will depart at 05:21.
If the train arrived late at 05:28, it will depart at 05:31.

Bill

Has the coding for set-down only changed, then? My recollection is that set-down only allows the train to depart early but does not force it so that on random occasions even when the set-down only box is ticked the train still waits for booked time. There has been a suggestion that there should be an additional option to force a train to depart as soon as it is ready to avoid the embarrassing situation of something like a RR move with set-down only times being allowed to start early then sit down across the throat while waiting for booked time.

Dionysusnu in post 137891 said:

What would be the benefit of this, if as you say, it would act in the same way as SetDown?

The only thing I can think of is that set down isn't guaranteed, whereas OP could be added which is, combined with a dwell time or similar.

The other advantage might be clarity, for instance 00X00 would confirm to the user the train is booked to pass another.

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

Jan in post 137920 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.

Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:

Jan in post 137920 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.

It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.

GeoffM in post 137922 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:

Jan in post 137920 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.

It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.

Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. In that case maybe it should be capped at 2 or 3 times the normal dwell time? It's unrealistic for a freight train to wait 2 hours when it's running early. And very frustrating when it does that while the tail overhangs a busy junction.

Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:

Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. In that case maybe it should be capped at 2 or 3 times the normal dwell time? It's unrealistic for a freight train to wait 2 hours when it's running early. And very frustrating when it does that while the tail overhangs a busy junction.

Personal view, however for me a separate option is preferable - it offers choice to the timetable writer, which in the end should contribute to making the finished product more realistic.

“Set down” works well for its intended purpose, but is often being used for purposes beyond that.

GeoffM in post 137922 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:

Jan in post 137920 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.

It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.

Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. In that case maybe it should be capped at 2 or 3 times the normal dwell time? It's unrealistic for a freight train to wait 2 hours when it's running early. And very frustrating when it does that while the tail overhangs a busy junction.

Dionysusnu in post 137923 said:

GeoffM in post 137922 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137921 said:

Jan in post 137920 said:

Dionysusnu in post 137919 said:

What are the conditions for it actually working or not? It seems very random when I play.

I think it literally is random.

In that case, I agree that there should be a way that a train will always depart when ready.

It's not binary. It's a range from the earliest possible departure (taking into account dwell time and suchlike) and its booked departure. Other factors affect it too, of course.

Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. In that case maybe it should be capped at 2 or 3 times the normal dwell time? It's unrealistic for a freight train to wait 2 hours when it's running early. And very frustrating when it does that while the tail overhangs a busy junction.

On the contrary, if a freight is booked relief and the driver to take it forward is working in, it might well wait a couple of hours - might indeed end up well late if the incoming train is late (the more so if the forward driver is booked PNB before taking over).

This. It was intended for one purpose, and has gone on to be used for other purposes. Capping is arbitrary and achieves little. As I believe someone mentioned earlier, this area is scheduled (sorry) for an review soon anyway.

kbarber in post 137928 said:

On the contrary, if a freight is booked relief and the driver to take it forward is working in, it might well wait a couple of hours - might indeed end up well late if the incoming train is late (the more so if the forward driver is booked PNB before taking over).

Does the “crew change” activity not cover that scenario?

DavidSplett in post 137929 said:

kbarber in post 137928 said:

On the contrary, if a freight is booked relief and the driver to take it forward is working in, it might well wait a couple of hours - might indeed end up well late if the incoming train is late (the more so if the forward driver is booked PNB before taking over).

Does the “crew change” activity not cover that scenario?

Not really - take this example,

6M01 is booked crew change at 0230 by the driver that requires a PNB off 6S01 which arrives at 0115. This driver is then booked away at 0330 on 6S02, Normally 6M01 would be away on time.

6S01 is running 60 minutes late arriving at 0215 the earliest that 6M01 would be able to depart would be 0300 assuming that the PNB is 45 minutes.

6S02 is running 15 early so will arrive at 0315 this would still have to wait for the driver off 6M01 completing his break which didnt start till his relief arrived and on it goes

So in SimSig terms 6M01 cannot leave until 45 minutes after 6S01 arrives. then you would have 6S02 would be 90/45 minutes after 6S01/6M01 arrives.

We're now heading into Traincrew diagramming and thats not a place I would like to be heading. Timetabling can get complex enough at times without having to worry about delays for awaiting crew changes.