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| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 19:20 #138443 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
Generally speaking, I'd expect a driver to query if an incorrect route is set for him/her, although I know that there can be exceptions. However, if a train pulls into a location where a run-round is required and the signaller sets a route back onto the train at the end from which the loco was detached, would the driver accept it without question? I wouldn’t have thought so. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 19:21 #138444 | |
DonRiver
166 posts |
Do you have an example where this has happened? I can see it happening, though, then "0B45 has 5B45 in front" until you tell them to reverse. (named for the one in Tasmania, not in Russia) Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 20:16 #138446 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
bugsy in post 138443 said:Generally speaking, I'd expect a driver to query if an incorrect route is set for him/her, although I know that there can be exceptions.It depends on the location. If there is headshunt A which leads to the pair of run-round tracks which leads to headshunt B then typically the loco will be scheduled RR->B->RR. Since you can typically get from A to B via both RR lines, we can't put wrong route logic in there. We could put a waypoint in but that then forces a particular use of a pair of lines which may not be appropriate. What would actually happen if you routed the loco straight back on to the train is that it will still be looking for the other headshunt/reversing location and won't perform the join. You'd have to manually deal with it by reversing it. Or I suppose you could edit its timetable to skip the RR. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 20:25 #138447 | |
Dionysusnu
577 posts |
just a little brainstorm, but maybe one of these could apply? - new timetable option marks "exit signal may not be call-on" at first headshunt > wrong route call - new timetable option marks "route through passing location may not be occupied" at runround loop itself > wrong route call? - wrong route if called-on into runround loop when TT has "passing" ticked? Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 20:43 #138448 | |
postal
5265 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 138447 said:just a little brainstorm, but maybe one of these could apply?Or rely on the signaller to do the job properly. As it is a signalling simulation rather than a computer game, I know where my money goes. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 21:38 #138450 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
DonRiver in post 138444 said:Do you have an example where this has happened?Here comes an admission. It happened to me in the West Yorkshire sim at Milford West sidings. I had loco 0K94 that wouldn't attach to its train in siding 11. The loco was timetabled to leave the siding, head for Milford Jn sig M5235 where it was to reverse towards Gascoigne Wood sig M5252 and then go back into the same siding to re-attach to its train at the other end. It was some time ago and I think that I must have lost concentration, misread the timetable, saw the loco's destination and mistakenly sent it back where it came from. Will I ever learn?! You could probably do the same thing with another loco to see for yourself.  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 22:08 #138452 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
It certainly happens to the best of us. Also applies to any other joining move - a moment of inattention and you have two units forlornly staring at each other side by side instead of performing coupling up in the same platform. No wrong route logic will detect that, and a limited number of cases where the driver would question the route in real life. There is only so much the sim can and/or should do.
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| Driver not querying a wrong route 07/04/2021 at 22:20 #138453 | |
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Hawk777
386 posts |
I suppose the ideal might be if SimSig understood more about the structure of the rolling stock, so if you did manage to skip the RR on a loco-hauled train and then send it out, either the driver would phone due to the loco being on the wrong end, or the train would set off at the very slow speed limit for propelling movements. That would be quite the refactor though, I imagine, and possibly incompatible with existing timetables.
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| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 08:07 #138456 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
As others have said, this is where you need to be a signalman and not a video game player. Of course, if anyone wanted to create some code so you got a suitably irate phone call from the driver?... (As it's a family game, the questions about your parentage and fitness to waste valuable oxygen would have to be in slightly inauthentic terms - no Charlie Brown in SimSig!) I can assure you, you learn fast not to send a LE back where he came from for a run-round... Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 08:37 #138457 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
postal in post 138448 said:Dionysusnu in post 138447 said:just a little brainstorm, but maybe one of these could apply?Or rely on the signaller to do the job properly. As it is a signalling simulation rather than a computer game, I know where my money goes. In reality, though, the driver would ring up to complain if you tried to put him straight back onto his train rather than running him through the empty road. I acknowledge obviously that it'd be a lot of effort to get the sim to recognise that sort of error, for very little benefit, but I dispute the suggestion that you shouldn't get a phone call because it's an accurate simulation when, if anything, that's why you should get a phone call! GeoffM in post 138452 said: It certainly happens to the best of us. Also applies to any other joining move - a moment of inattention and you have two units forlornly staring at each other side by side instead of performing coupling up in the same platform. No wrong route logic will detect that, and a limited number of cases where the driver would question the route in real life. There is only so much the sim can and/or should do. Been there, done that. The opposite too - had a unit dropped on top of mine to attach, as booked, to end up forlornly staring at the 'non multi' sticker on that unit as it arrived. The plan had been for me to shunt out first to drop back in after the other unit arrived and couple to the other (good) end instead, but neither the signalman nor the station supervisor had been told anything, and it was too late by the time I realised something was amiss and queried it. There's not a lot that you can expect the incoming driver to do in a situation like either of those - he might not even know that his unit's booked to attach to something already in the platform, if he's not booked to do the attachment himself. About all that you can hope for is for him to question a main aspect route into a platform when he's expecting something to already be in there, but you could still put him into an occupied platform (but the wrong occupied platform) and he'd be none the wiser. Last edited: 08/04/2021 at 08:37 by Late Turn Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 08:39 #138458 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Couple of years ago when I was commuting (remember that?) the 16.40 Kings Cross to Peterbourgh was to be found on 2 platforms at the same time. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 09:43 #138460 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
bugsy in post 138450 said:DonRiver in post 138444 said:I've done this a few times myself. And it always happens when there are a million trains approaching Milford Junction and Gascoigne Wood. So you just have to abandon all hope (and the timetable) of the train leaving on time.Do you have an example where this has happened?Here comes an admission. Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 09:52 #138461 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
You may not get a wrong route call in this case, as the driver may think he's running back through an empty through road in the sidings to 5252 as opposed to running direct down the mainline.
Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 10:21 #138462 | |
Soton_Speed
285 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 138458 said:Couple of years ago when I was commuting (remember that?) the 16.40 Kings Cross to Peterbourgh was to be found on 2 platforms at the same time.Is 1P00 a wave or a particle? Discuss. (365 marks) In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply The following users said thank you: pedroathome, Albert, jc92 |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 10:49 #138463 | |
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postal
5265 posts |
Edit: Deleted by Postal. Misread point that was being made.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 08/04/2021 at 12:44 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 11:35 #138464 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Late Turn in post 138457 said:There are also some siding / run round locations in SimSig where the remote signaller is actually doing the job of ground staff who would be walking the loco onto the train throwing hand levers as they go. There are also enough locations / timetables that need some free choice to work, Townhill on Edinburgh comes to mind. Depending on lateness you might want the train in one of 3 lines, and still have up to 4 other ways for the run round. Bill Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 12:05 #138465 | |
jc92
3687 posts |
Late Turn in post 138457 said:Purely as a driver, or a signaller as well? I can imagine a confused engine crew expecting to couple onto the Cromwell Pullman, only to come onto a rake of 16t wagons :D as an aside, am I right in thinking a drivers worklist doesn't show him what the train does next, only what he does next, so if a unit (for example) arrives at Nottingham from the sneinton end and is booked into a through Platform, but gets the bay, the driver will likely accept it as he knows he's got a booked PNB due, but doesn't know the unit works to Matlock next with obvious problems arising. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 13:35 #138468 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
Some really interesting replies. Thanks for those. It was an hour and a half before I noticed that this train was still in the siding and well behind its departure time. I did consider shunting the loco about until it was at the correct end, but decided to go back to a much earlier save and do things right. However, I have kept the last save made with the loco and the train facing each other in the siding and will probably run it at some point making the necessary moves to get the loco onto the correct end of the train. I have now put sticky notes at Milford West sidings so that I can see what’s due to depart, etc. and avoid making any conflicting movements in the vicinity. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 16:00 #138470 | |
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Late Turn
699 posts |
jc92 in post 138465 said:Late Turn in post 138457 said:Purely as a driver, or a signaller as well? I can imagine a confused engine crew expecting to couple onto the Cromwell Pullman, only to come onto a rake of 16t wagons :D I don't think I've ever done it as a signalman. I know someone who did, in preservation, though. Got the loco off its train, ran it out of the station and then promptly signalled it back onto its train. Driver phoned to complain, signalman put the road back and went off to do something else whilst it timed out. Came back to it, put the lever fully normal and then pulled it off again for the same route. D'oh! jc92 in post 138465 said: as an aside, am I right in thinking a drivers worklist doesn't show him what the train does next, only what he does next, so if a unit (for example) arrives at Nottingham from the sneinton end and is booked into a through Platform, but gets the bay, the driver will likely accept it as he knows he's got a booked PNB due, but doesn't know the unit works to Matlock next with obvious problems arising. As a driver, we don't generally know what a train's doing next, as you say. The only exception is if it's a through train continuing beyond where we're being relieved (but even then it doesn't differentiate between, e.g. "Norwich via Grantham" and "Norwich via Oakham"), or if it's to go onto shed where it'll generally show "S&F" on the diagram upon arrival ("shed and ferry"). Nottingham's a good example, with the number of set swaps (even on through services) that you get some days, so diagrams would quickly become a work of fiction anyway and you'd end up causing unnecessary delay with drivers querying routes. There are a couple of driver diagrams with a note manually added to indicate that a train must go into one of two specified platforms to be ready for its next working (Derby, where an arrival from Nottingham then forms a Crewe service, so must go into 3 or 4). Generally, though, we have to trust the signalman and/or station supervisor to get it right! Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 16:20 #138471 | |
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Dionysusnu
577 posts |
Late Turn in post 138470 said:Derby, where an arrival from Nottingham then forms a Crewe service, so must go into 3 or 4I'm just wondering, why is that a requirement? Aren't all platforms at Derby bidirectional, except platform 5? Log in to reply |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 16:27 #138472 | |
Hap
1039 posts |
jc92 in post 138465 said:Late Turn in post 138457 said:The driver should know the service they are working. I.e it's destination. Doesn't have to be on their diagram. Even if they were only working half of the journey they would still need to look at departure boards to find out where their train is. This goes the same for all train crew, gotta use the boards just like everyone else.Purely as a driver, or a signaller as well? I can imagine a confused engine crew expecting to couple onto the Cromwell Pullman, only to come onto a rake of 16t wagons :D Edinburgh for example has 2 Inverness services leaving in close succession (4 minutes) of each other, one via Fife - PTh - HML and the other Fife - Dundee - Aberdeen - INV. Think it's a Sunday (been so long since I've worked them). Anyway, They left from Platforms 15 & 16 which are right next to each other. Sometimes they were on the same platform.... *rolls eyes*. Certainly for us we need to know what the destination is and the stops regardless where we are being relieved. How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply The following user said thank you: DonRiver |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 17:44 #138473 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 138471 said:Late Turn in post 138470 said:The track layout at Derby has changed significantly since the simulation was produced. Platform 5 is now bidirectional. You cannot access Birmingham/Crewe from Platforms 5/6, nor can you access Nottingham from platforms 1/2.Derby, where an arrival from Nottingham then forms a Crewe service, so must go into 3 or 4I'm just wondering, why is that a requirement? Aren't all platforms at Derby bidirectional, except platform 5?  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 19:33 #138475 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
I was thinking of making a similar comment but James has said first. Is that a screenshot of the real Derby workstation panel at the EMCC? I live at Ambergate and monitor the Derby area on Railcam live diagrams. For what it's worth I would buy a sim of the Derby workstation area and current layout.
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| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 20:48 #138476 | |
Tempest Malice
122 posts |
ambergatesm in post 138475 said:Is that a screenshot of the real Derby workstation panel at the EMCC?No, the workstation is a WESTCAD and visually doesn't look too different in symbols used to SimSig (both following the NR standard relatively closely); Though unfortunately I have probably done too much work involving the real thing to get away with sharing a picture so you'll just have to take my word for how it looks. That picture is from CCF, one of NR's internal information systems originally for control rooms of the not signalling variety (though the picture could be from any of many places, as some stations even have CCF displays in public view for platform staff information (though more recently that task has been systems purpose built for that task) ) And just to be on topic, I agree somewhat with the thought that a real driver would probably question being sent straight back to the platform/yard road they came from when doing a run round. But I also imagine that adding such a check to SimSig probably wouldn't be particularly easy given how a train in SimSig doesn't really know that it is doing a run round, and as the detach activity would be on the other train, you can't even just look for being formed from a train you are about to join again (especially as there could be a varying number of extra timing points between the "now" of checking for returning where you come from and actually joining back together) Last edited: 08/04/2021 at 20:54 by Tempest Malice Reason: add more words Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ambergatesm |
| Driver not querying a wrong route 08/04/2021 at 21:24 #138477 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
I must admit I thought it looked more like control room screens that I have seen in "fly on the wall" railway documentaries I have seen on TV. Apart from the layout at Derby and a few signal number changes, the layout is much the same as the Central and North panels of the Derby PSB sim.
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