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| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 13:13 #139137 | |
ajax103
1120 posts |
Afternoon all, as far as I'm aware the fringes between the two signal boxes above was at Palmer's Green and Langley Junction and this was stated in a visit to Kings Cross PSB that's viewable on Google. Plus in my own visits to the PSB this was stated, so my question is with SimSig having contacts within the industry can they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt where the fringes were regards to the Hertford Loop please? I have tried Internet Archive for a older snapshot of the OTT map but Google is unwilling to do this. Can anyone help? Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 13:37 #139139 | |
Dionysusnu
577 posts |
  taken from OTT before KX PSB closed Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ajax103 |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 13:39 #139140 | |
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Dionysusnu
577 posts |
At Hertford North I also screenshotted this, which isn't much use... Edit: This is still there in the current map, however the previous KX-York boundaries are not. 
Last edited: 27/04/2021 at 13:40 by Dionysusnu Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 13:46 #139142 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
ajax103 in post 139137 said:Afternoon all, as far as I'm aware the fringes between the two signal boxes above was at Palmer's Green and Langley Junction and this was stated in a visit to Kings Cross PSB that's viewable on Google.I'm not sure that OTT proves this "without a shadow of doubt". Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 14:32 #139144 | |
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Dionysusnu
577 posts |
The data which OTT draws its maps from is split by signalling centre. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume the boundaries indicated on OTT are also the boundaries in the TD data and therefore signalling areas. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 15:42 #139147 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts |
An assumption, however well grounded, isn’t proving anything though? That’s the point I think Peter was trying to get across. OTT is very good, don’t get me wrong. But it isn’t meant as an authoritative source of signalling information. It just uses signalling data to display train positions on a diagrammatic map, along with some rudimentary signalling indications. The assertions around how OTT draws its maps, and how that data is split up are false. TD data areas are not necessarily split at signalling centre boundaries nor vice versa. Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 15:44 #139148 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts 
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Given that any resignalling scheme - or even a recontrol - involves multiple phases over a period of time with stuff shifting left and right, you can't take OTT's maps (or any other maps for that matter) as gospel, and that's nothing against the map makers, it's just the way it is. You can't even take the TD or signal ID prefixes reliably as there are far too many incidences of the TD provided by one box while another box has the control equipment during transitions. It's often not feasible to switch everything over in one hit. Once the dust settles and the work is complete, then you can use the maps more reliably. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 16:00 #139149 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
JamesN in post 139147 said:An assumption, however well grounded, isn’t proving anything though? That’s the point I think Peter was trying to get across.Indeed, I was not saying that OTT was wrong, just that it was not without a shadow of doubt correct. Without a shadow of doubt seems to me to be a higher hurdle to cross than beyond all reasonable doubt as used in a Criminal Court. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 16:22 #139152 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts
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GeoffM in post 139148 said:Given that any resignalling scheme - or even a recontrol - involves multiple phases over a period of time with stuff shifting left and right, you can't take OTT's maps (or any other maps for that matter) as gospel, and that's nothing against the map makers, it's just the way it is. You can't even take the TD or signal ID prefixes reliably as there are far too many incidences of the TD provided by one box while another box has the control equipment during transitions. It's often not feasible to switch everything over in one hit.Just had a chat with Peter (of OTT) and yes, the control/TD/interlockings for each KX area were not always in the same building meaning you could not reliably deduce the boundaries during stageworks. Also, though Peter did update his maps this weekend at the same time as the real thing, that is not always the case - he's only human and a one-man-band! SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Kings Cross PSB and York ROC fringe 27/04/2021 at 17:21 #139155 | |
Tempest Malice
122 posts |
ajax103 in post 139137 said:the fringes between the two signal boxes above was at Palmer's Green and Langley JunctionThis was true for a few months when only the Hertford loop workstation had moved to York (well for the up end fringe, your right the up line fringe was at Palmer's Green, but on the down line it was at Grange Park (To be more precise, but admittedly less helpful, the boundary aligned with the boundary between Gordon Hill and Wood Green interlockings, with the signals in Gordon Hill interlocking controlled from the Hertford loop workstation but keeping their "K" prefix, rather than the "WL" used by the newer signals on the same workstation; so as others have very much said, signal prefix changes often do not line up with control boundaries)). But since the movement of the north half of kings cross PSB to York's control back in august, the fringe at Langley junction was no longer a fringe, effectively replaced by the one shown in the second picture of Dionysusnu's post #139139 (which open train times has reasonably accurately). Additionally, the Hertford loop no longer had a dedicated workstation, with control of it split between the new Wood Green and Langley workstations at York ROC. (Meaning that until the weekend just gone, the wood green signaller had control of a section of the Hertford loop, and of the main line, but not of a connection between them. But that is now joined up again now that Wood Green workstation has now gained control of wood green interlocking (generally the Alexandra palace area) with the closure of KX PSB) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: GeoffM, ajax103 |