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| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 08/02/2022 at 17:26 #145088 | |
TUT
532 posts |
Hello everyone, I'm sure I remember an excellent post on this forum (mind you it could have been somewhere else, assuming it wasn't all a dream!) that went into great detail about how signallers knew which train was which and where to route each train at junctions before the days of TRUST, modern train describers, CCF and even the telephone. As I remember it was a great post that went into all kinds of detail, even referencing the use of the engine whistle to inform the signaller which way the train was booked to go. Sadly, as you've probably guessed, I can't find it for the life of me. Does anybody know where I can find it, or failing that could anyone perhaps author a replacement answer to the question: how were trains identified before all the modern paraphernalia encrusted our railway and how did the bobbies of before know where their trains were going? Log in to reply |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 08/02/2022 at 20:31 #145089 | |
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Andy174
94 posts |
I can only go on my experiencce as a boxboy on the Southern Region in 1986, we had a train describer which had a description of the route/class of the next train. I think you could have up to 10 trains in sequence and then as each passed out of your area it would be cancelled on the describer. However it didnt tell you the identity of each indivdual train. this was on a laminated sheet so as long as the service was running ok the trains on the describer apart from freight should run hand in hand with the sheet. When out of sequence it was down to the boxes either side to communicate with each other by phone. On the Southern we still had then indivdual route codes on the front of passenger trains so if the service was really disrupted and trains were out of sequence you could still confirm the ID of one by the hedacode. Photos of the describers etc are on this link https://photos.signalling.org/index?/category/522-gillingham
Last edited: 08/02/2022 at 20:40 by Andy174 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 08/02/2022 at 21:50 #145090 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Don't recall, but here's a few comments Whistles were for working around a station area (could be more than one box) and was specific to the location. So 1 long 2 short might mean 'please send me to the up yard' in one place, and 'engine to turntable' somewhere else. Between boxes they would need to rely on the timetable and phone/morse updates from boxes further up the line on train progress and order, especially if they were the same type of train. The box before a junction might have special 'is line clear' bells for branch and main routes at the junction. By the time the junction box saw the train it would likely be too late to read any indications on the lead vehicle and act. On train indications were anything from TD as we know now (blinds on diesels, chalked on steam), brief 'route indications' like bus numbers (DMU/EMU), 3 digit train numbers, lamp positions or other mechanical indicators (like Caledonian bow ties) Bill Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 07:25 #145093 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I'd have thought, by the time the signalman saw the headcode, it'd be too late. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 09:33 #145096 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
I fear the original post was one of my rambles :-) In quieter boxes - and in not-so-quiet boxes where trains didn't need routing - there was no need for a bobby to know anything about the train at all, though the bell signal would indicate class (needed more for regulating than routing purposes, in the days when refuge sidings were frequent). Where the traffic was relatively light, the timetable plus telephone advice from Control and/or boxes down the line would be more than sufficient. Telegraph was used extensively on the Great Northern, as much for train running information as routing. Routing codes were common in busier areas and, yes, they often were initiated by whistle signals (the driver, after all, could be relied on to have an idea where he wanted to go). Whistle codes were laid down int he Sectional Appendix and routing codes were detailed (or a standard set was referenced) in the Signalbox Special Instructions. So at St Albans South up trains for Brent Up Sidings whistled 2 short - 1 long, while those for Brent South Sidings or the Acton Branch whistled 1 short - 1 long. St Albans used the special Train Entering Section code 2-2-2 for the Up Sidings and 2-2-4 for South Sidings/Acton, which was also sent forward by Napsbury (next box to the south and with a short section from St Albans). On receipt of the special TES, Radlett would then use the 'C' codes for trains to the Up Sidings, 'B' codes for Acton/South Sidings (which were on the down side) and normal codes for all others. After Welsh Harp was abolished in 1969, Elstree would ensure all trains signalled with the special codes were put slow line, and Silkstream Junction would set the road for the Goods Line on receipt of a 'B' code (all others went up the Local). I suspect (but don't have access to older instructions) the 'C' codes were sent forward to Hendon and on to Brent No. 1, who directed trains offered with a 'C' code to the Reception lines and sent all others on up the Local towards Cricklewood. In later years, of course, headcodes took the place of whistle signals but apart from losing the 2-2-2 and C codes when Brent 1 was abolished in mid-1978 the special codes continued unchanged until West Hampstead took over. Running the old-style railway was a work of art! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 09:35 #145097 | |
postal
5264 posts 
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There's the kernel of a good book somewhere here.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Soton_Speed |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 13:33 #145098 | |
jc92
3685 posts |
Another key tool was the telephone. Boxes normally had an Omnibus circuit between a string of boxes along a section of line (in addition to any other phones). When the phone was picked up, it would pick up any one else speaking on the circuit and in turn, pass your message to all other boxes, so multiple boxes could in effect have a zoom meeting pre internet. This could be used to pass regulating information/strategy among other things. In "Great Central Signalman" Ian Mackenzie recalls that Woodford No1 Box had the job of ringing control to confirm the departure of each Northbound freight from Woodford Halse, and also they would advise via the Omnibus circuit, the Headcodes, order of running, and length in SLU of each train, so all the boxes between Woodford and Leicester had a clear picture of which train was which, and also whether it would fit in their loop/recessing siding should they need to hold it. The same would occur southbound, but Leicester Goods South had the reverse job. the same process was repeated along each additional omnibus section along the line. Something that Keith didn't mention about the MML (among others), but has discussed in the past, possibly elsewhere, is the colourful and lengthy routing codes for freightliner trains, based on the trains length as much as its route, so as to confirm where it could and couldn't be looped. Nowadays a quick check of TRUST will confirm the trains consist and length, but back then, this was crucial if such a train was running late or early. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Newhampshires |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 16:57 #145105 | |
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Andy174
94 posts |
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Last edited: 09/02/2022 at 16:59 by Andy174 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 16:58 #145106 | |
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Andy174
94 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 145093 said:I'd have thought, by the time the signalman saw the headcode, it'd be too late. Not really, mine was a passing box so for instance a 74 headcode was a Victoria to Dover fast with 37 being the same route but a stopper which on the next boxes patch went into a passing loop to serve a station whereas the fast ran straight through. If theyd got mixed up and wrongly described there was still time if identified by the headcode to tell the next box down so they could be routed correctly. Log in to reply |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 09/02/2022 at 17:06 #145107 | |
Steamer
3984 posts |
The Southern Region (or at least some parts of it) had a "Branch Train Entering Section" bell as well, along with a wider range of branch "Is Line Clear" codes. In a sequence of boxes A-B-C, with the junction at C, 'A' would ask line clear normally but send branch TES. B would use the branch ILC and branch TES, with the train being described normally by C to the next box on the diverging line. That meant that three signallers had to make a mistake before the train was wrongly routed, and allowed checking of headcodes.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Identifying and routing trains in the good old days 10/02/2022 at 09:17 #145111 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
jc92 in post 145098 said:Another key tool was the telephone. Boxes normally had an Omnibus circuit between a string of boxes along a section of line (in addition to any other phones). When the phone was picked up, it would pick up any one else speaking on the circuit and in turn, pass your message to all other boxes, so multiple boxes could in effect have a zoom meeting pre internet. This could be used to pass regulating information/strategy among other things. Yes indeed. Telephone advice was the norm all around the North London system (broadly NL, T&H, West London). So South Tottenham and Junction Road circuited to each other with the 'bus phone (the boxes between didn't need to know, though Junction Road used the 2-2-4 TES for trains towards Temple Mills). Towards Gospel Oak, we would simply pick up the phone when a train was offered to pass its description. (When Eddie Bishop was at Gospel Oak on nights, he would usually pick up when South Tottenham buzzed me. Made the job really easy; a delight to work with.) Most other places the drill was to pick up when offered a train, except between Acton Wells and Kew East who circuited to each other. jc92 in post 145098 said: Something that Keith didn't mention about the MML (among others), but has discussed in the past, possibly elsewhere, is the colourful and lengthy routing codes for freightliner trains, based on the trains length as much as its route, so as to confirm where it could and couldn't be looped. Nowadays a quick check of TRUST will confirm the trains consist and length, but back then, this was crucial if such a train was running late or early. The LMR absolutely refused to have anything to do with overlength codes, or indeed to advise overlength trains at all. So on the T&H it was Harringay's job to add the overlength prefix to any train that needed it; if Harringay was closed Tottenham got no warning of overlength at all. Log in to reply |