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| What would a driver do in this situation? 19/08/2022 at 15:58 #147617 | |
bugsy
1766 posts |
Although I'm playing a Doncaster South timetable, the situation the I describe below could happen on other sims where there is a passing loop. You can see in the screenshot that 1N06 has been brought to a halt at a red signal just prior to a Track Circuit Failure. The previous train was required to follow the normal procedure i.e. "pass signal at danger and examine the line" and the driver reported that there were no obstacles so he was cleared to proceed. The loop at that time was occupied by a freight train so that any closely following passenger trains could pass it. As the loop is now unoccupied, in the sim I have the option of setting a route through the loop, but in real life could a driver ask the signaller to do the same, or would that not be permitted? I think that I already know the answer but was just wondering. ...  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 19/08/2022 at 16:09 #147618 | |
2W34
58 posts |
In my experience, NWR would use any method possible of not sending trains through a TC failure (apart from degraded working, it's purely to save delays stopping each train and having to authorise each train through), so as you say using the loop. If it's not cleared for passenger trains I imagine authorisation would have to come from the Signalbox Supervisor, or NWR Control and the driver briefed before they make a move. A driver wouldn't suggest anything to the signaller usually, it's the signallers job to decide where to route trains.
Last edited: 19/08/2022 at 16:10 by 2W34 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 19/08/2022 at 19:45 #147619 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
As a driver (which I am), I wouldn't even be aware of the option to go through the loop unless the signaller specifically told me that the option existed. I'm not sure why they would even tell me that unless that's what they wanted me to do. In which case, I would go through the loop as instructed. But I'm certainly not going to start suggesting to the signaller what should be done, as the signaller has lead responsibility in this situation, and they make the decision. As drivers, we have to assume that the signaller knows the situation fully, and has a plan of action (don't laugh, fellow drivers ...) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 19/08/2022 at 20:18 #147620 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
Aha. So, if I understand correctly, the signaller, who can see the situation on his panel, has the authority to set a route to avoid the TC failure if he so wishes. The driver wouldn't request such a move because he wouldn't necessarily know why the signal is at danger in any case. Quite interesting. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 19/08/2022 at 21:29 #147621 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
Correct. As a driver, the worst thing you can do is assume things. The best way to avoid trouble is to just do as you're told, and not start suggesting silly ideas to signallers. :-) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 07:18 #147622 | |
Hap
1037 posts |
Just as an aside regarding Goods Loops though... Working trains carrying passengers over goods lines or goods loops 11.1 Allowing trains carrying passengers over goods lines or goods loops You must not allow a train carrying passengers to enter a goods line or goods loop unless: • the arrangements have been published, or • it is an emergency, as long as you have been authorised to do so by the signal box supervisor or Operations Control. Unless the arrangements have been published, you must stop each train carrying passengers and tell the driver what is happening before you allow the train on to the goods line or goods loop. 11.2 If the line is not protected by trap points Before you allow a train carrying passengers onto a goods line or goods loop that is not protected by trap points from a movement from sidings, you must be sure, or get an assurance from the person in charge, that: • these sidings are clear of vehicles and no movement will approach, or • all vehicles and traction units on these sidings are properly secured and are clear of the line to be used by the train carrying passengers. If the driver of any traction unit is present, you must tell the driver, or be sure that the driver has been told, not to make any further movement until authorised by you. How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 09:09 #147625 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
In the screenshot above, the loop in question is marked 'DPL' which I take to mean a 'passing loop' and therefore both passenger and goods trains can use it. I remember the 'goods loop' are marked as such on the SimSig diagrams 
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| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 09:57 #147626 | |
JohnMiller
321 posts |
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Last edited: 20/08/2022 at 16:30 by JohnMiller Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 11:21 #147628 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
bugsy in post 147625 said:In the screenshot above, the loop in question is marked 'DPL' which I take to mean a 'passing loop' and therefore both passenger and goods trains can use it. I remember the 'goods loop' are marked as such on the SimSig diagrams :)DPL is "Down Passenger Loop", meaning that passenger trains can go into it without special authority or querying the route. Whereas DGL is, of course, "Down Goods Loop". If I was signalled into a DGL (or a UGL!) in passenger service, I would always stop and query it with the signaller. If I was empty stock, I would go straight in without questioning it. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 11:29 #147630 | |
Splodge
716 posts |
bugsy in post 147625 said:In the screenshot above, the loop in question is marked 'DPL' which I take to mean a 'passing loop' and therefore both passenger and goods trains can use it. I remember the 'goods loop' are marked as such on the SimSig diagrams :)Yep, driver knowledge tells you which loops are 'passenger' and 'goods' and thus which ones you can accept without question in service There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 13:09 #147631 | |
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Class 92
359 posts |
A somewhat unrelated question. With the level crossing being in the middle of the loop, do signallers avoid looping trains there (if possible) or do they treat it the same as any other loop? I'm not familiar with the area but do many trains use the loop and block the crossing for long periods?
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| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 16:01 #147634 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
Class 92 in post 147631 said:A somewhat unrelated question. With the level crossing being in the middle of the loop, do signallers avoid looping trains there (if possible) or do they treat it the same as any other loop? I'm not familiar with the area but do many trains use the loop and block the crossing for long periods?A glance at the London and North Eastern Sectional Appendix reveals that Claypole Down Loop is 723 metres long. A quick look on Google Maps reveals that Barnby Lane LC is just over halfway along the loop, at around something like 370m to 380m from the entrance crossover. That would give the signaller around 340m to 350m between D57 signal and the crossing. There is nothing in the local instructions for Claypole Down Loop (not that I could find, anyway), so one can only assume that the signaller must know how much room is between D57 signal and Barnby Lane LC, and route trains accordingly. If you use street view to place yourself on the crossing, you will see it's on a very quiet country road in the middle of nowhere, so the chances of causing a huge traffic jam are slim. I'm sure someone somewhere knows the working procedures for such crossings. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Class 92, TUT |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 20/08/2022 at 16:24 #147636 | |
Tempest Malice
122 posts |
Class 92 in post 147631 said:A somewhat unrelated question. With the level crossing being in the middle of the loop, do signallers avoid looping trains there (if possible) or do they treat it the same as any other loop? I'm not familiar with the area but do many trains use the loop and block the crossing for long periods?A quick glance at photos.signalling.org reveals that claypole gate box (which actually controls the crossing) has a separate track circuit for the portion beyond the crossing (the sim correctly represents the view Doncaster gets for the combined track circuit) so they can send in a shorter train into the loop just fine and still open the crossing behind it, but yes a longer train will still lock it down, and I imagine there is probably somewhere (signal box instructions perhaps) a maximum number of minutes written that they should intend to do that for, but I can't imagine that they try to avoid using the loop at all (otherwise why would it have been built). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: TUT, Class 92 |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 06:28 #147641 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
In the SimSig track diagram the Loop is shown as 300M on the Doncaster side of the crossing and 423M on the London side, although it looks like only one Track Circuit is shown. ...  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 07:04 #147642 | |
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mfloyd
189 posts |
I believe this is 300m clear of the crossing but 423M inclusive of blocking the crossing - so total loop length available is 423M
Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 07:37 #147645 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
No, total length is 723m. 300m is the distance of the track circuit that is clear of the crossing. A further 423m is available in the loop but would leave the crossing blocked
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| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 07:49 #147646 | |
postal
5264 posts |
y10g9 in post 147645 said:No, total length is 723m. 300m is the distance of the track circuit that is clear of the crossing. A further 423m is available in the loop but would leave the crossing blockedThe 2022 Rules of the Plan include: Claypole Loop Restrictions In Down directions, train in excess of 350 yards (50 SLU) in length are only permitted to stand for a maximum of 15 minutes. This is presumably related to the need to avoid blocking the LC. It implies that a train of that length would be clear of the southern TC so that the LC can be raised. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 21/08/2022 at 07:52 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 10:24 #147649 | |
Guts
604 posts |
lazzer in post 147619 said:As a driver (which I am), I wouldn't even be aware of the option to go through the loop unless the signaller specifically told me that the option existed. I'm not sure why they would even tell me that unless that's what they wanted me to do. In which case, I would go through the loop as instructed.Oiy, we signallers do know what we're doing!! LOL Well...... I can only vouch for Wembley Mainline. :-D Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 10:45 #147650 | |
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bugsy
1766 posts |
y10g9 in post 147645 said:No, total length is 723m. 300m is the distance of the track circuit that is clear of the crossing. A further 423m is available in the loop but would leave the crossing blockedThat was a maths error. I didn't add the two lengths together. Oops 
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Last edited: 21/08/2022 at 10:46 by bugsy Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 17:19 #147652 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
Guts in post 147649 said:lazzer in post 147619 said:Try driving a train on track under the control of Westbury ...As a driver (which I am), I wouldn't even be aware of the option to go through the loop unless the signaller specifically told me that the option existed. I'm not sure why they would even tell me that unless that's what they wanted me to do. In which case, I would go through the loop as instructed.Oiy, we signallers do know what we're doing!! LOL
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| What would a driver do in this situation? 21/08/2022 at 21:20 #147658 | |
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Guts
604 posts |
lazzer in post 147652 said:Guts in post 147649 said:Ah! The Western. VERY strange bunch of folk.lazzer in post 147619 said:Try driving a train on track under the control of Westbury ... :)As a driver (which I am), I wouldn't even be aware of the option to go through the loop unless the signaller specifically told me that the option existed. I'm not sure why they would even tell me that unless that's what they wanted me to do. In which case, I would go through the loop as instructed.Oiy, we signallers do know what we're doing!! LOL Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 25/08/2022 at 01:56 #147703 | |
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Keith Palmer
12 posts |
No, Goods Loops cannot be used, simply to avoid delay to passenger trains! Once the line has been initially examined and confirmed to be safe for the passage of trains, the signaller would authorise following trains to pass the signal at danger and proceed over the affected portion of line. This would be done once the previous train had cleared the overlap track circuit of the next signal. The inlet/outlet facing/trailing points for the Goods Loop would be locked in their normal positions by use of the (IPS) individual points switches on the EN-EX panel! However, if there was a serious obstruction/track defect, etc between the inlet facing points for the Goods Loop and the outlet trailing points, thus preventing the passage of trains, then the signaller would need special dispensation from the PSB supervisor/manager or from the control office. The drivers of passenger trains would need to be informed that he/she is going to be signalled into the Goods Loop, but this would only be done provided the overlap track circuits are clear throughout the Goods Loop and also ahead of the signal beyond the Goods Loop on the main line which must also be clear. The signaller himself/herself does not have this authority to implement such special workings. Log in to reply |
| What would a driver do in this situation? 25/08/2022 at 16:34 #147709 | |
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Keith Palmer
12 posts |
Generally speaking, that's all that's needed!
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| What would a driver do in this situation? 25/08/2022 at 17:02 #147710 | |
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TUT
532 posts 
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Keith Palmer in post 147703 said:No, Goods Loops cannot be used, simply to avoid delay to passenger trains!In the example we have here Claypole Loop is a passenger line so it doesn't matter. Also, in our example, the TCF will obviously be affecting Barnby Lane CCTVs which will need taking under local control which would stop you clearing the signal anyway. If it weren't for that, though, I would think clearing the signal for a goods loop would be far safer than S5ing over two CCTV level crossings, two crossovers worked from a ground frame and a set of facing points. I would definitely ask for authority to use the goods loop. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: flabberdacks, Albert |