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| Default timezone when not logged in 09/04/2023 at 18:15 #151115 | |
9pN1SEAp
1180 posts 
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Hi, It's a bit confusing if you connect to the website without logging in, to see a game showing the time in UTC. Might I suggest it would be better to use GMT0BST (Europe/London) as the default timezone to display? Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 09/04/2023 at 18:50 #151116 | |
y10g9
895 posts |
UTC is Coordinated Universal Time and is 100% the right time to be the default used by the website. Unlike GMT it is not a time zone and UTC is more accurate than GMT. While a large proportion of the sim sim community are UK based, where GMT/BST would make sense, these time zones make no sense to people who don’t live in the UK. This would be especially obvious for those living in the Southern Hemisphere where their daylight saving time is 6 months out for the UK Further information on UTC is available here Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 09/04/2023 at 21:45 #151117 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Actually, neither UTC nor GMT are time zones. Both are monotonic time references. GMT is officially UT0, but in practice all sources for GMT (e.g. the "pips" on the radio) use UTC. The only reason the legal definition didn't get changed is because politicians were scared of an outcry about "getting rid of Greenwich". I can see arguments for either having the default be UK legal time (GMT/BST), because most of the users are in the Europe/London time zone, or being always UTC because that's easiest to convert. Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 09:12 #151119 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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If GMT and UTC0 are the same thing then how can one be more accurate than the other? Also, given that, why is UTC easier to "convert"? Convert to what? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 10/04/2023 at 09:13 by Peter Bennet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 09:55 #151120 | |
kaiwhara
587 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 151119 said:If GMT and UTC0 are the same thing then how can one be more accurate than the other?Because the UK observes Daylight Savings. UTC is a constant. They are not the same time for 6 months of the year. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 10:10 #151122 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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kaiwhara in post 151120 said:Peter Bennet in post 151119 said:GMT remains GMT, we move to British Summer Time (BST) or GMT+1 which is presumably UTC+1.If GMT and UTC0 are the same thing then how can one be more accurate than the other?Because the UK observes Daylight Savings. UTC is a constant. They are not the same time for 6 months of the year. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 10:59 #151123 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 151119 said:If GMT and UTC0 are the same thing then how can one be more accurate than the other?Firstly, I said UT0, which isn't the same as UTC (there is no "UTC0"). I also didn't say "more accurate"; rather, they measure different things. UTC has constant length seconds but sometimes has minutes that are 61 or (in theory) 59 seconds long. UT0 always has 60 seconds to the minute but the seconds aren't always the same length. I gave a paper to a law conference on this topic in, um, 2011. You can read it here: http://www.davros.org/presentations/whattime-20110627.html If you don't want to read it all, search for "Three statements". Peter Bennet in post 151119 said: Also, given that, why is UTC easier to "convert"? Convert to what?Suppose you know that your local time is 8 hours and 45 minutes ahead of UTC. Is it easier to convert a UTC time to your local time or to convert a time which might be GMT or might be BST, but you don't know which offhand? (I know of at least two instances, one associated with a murder trial, where the police got this wrong and searched the wrong house or arrested the wrong person.) Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 20:36 #151139 | |
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kaiwhara
587 posts |
So, when I said the UK observes Daylight Savigs time, and UTC doesn't move, I wasn't wrong was I. Not seeing the point you're making apart from clutching at straws. For those of us in New Zealand and Australia, it's important we get this right. Andrew Auckland, NZ Peter Bennet in post 151122 said: kaiwhara in post 151120 said:Peter Bennet in post 151119 said:GMT remains GMT, we move to British Summer Time (BST) or GMT+1 which is presumably UTC+1.If GMT and UTC0 are the same thing then how can one be more accurate than the other?Because the UK observes Daylight Savings. UTC is a constant. They are not the same time for 6 months of the year. Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 21:00 #151140 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
Using GMT would obviously be very confusing to anyone outside the UK so we're certainly not doing that. However, I will display the timezone or UTC to the time shown so the user is aware. Mantis 38437. (Event times are always shown local to that event so this does not need any change) SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ajax103 |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 21:34 #151141 | |
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TUT
532 posts
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kaiwhara in post 151139 said:So, when I said the UK observes Daylight Savigs time, and UTC doesn't move, I wasn't wrong was I.But I don't really see what point you're making either. GMT isn't British time. GMT doesn't change either. When the UK observes daylight savings it stops using GMT, switching to BST instead. Meanwhile GMT keeps being GMT. Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 10/04/2023 at 22:44 #151142 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts
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kaiwhara in post 151139 said:So, when I said the UK observes Daylight Savigs time, and UTC doesn't move, I wasn't wrong was I. I'm not sure where straw-clutching comes into it, I'm just trying to understand the point. It's become even more head-scratchy having read Clive's presentation and the UT/UTC/DUT/DDT. However, I did not say you were wrong to say UTC did not move, what I did say was that GMT does not move either. Peter P.S. It's 23.44 BST at the moment, that's 22.44 GMT and (I presume) 22.44 UTC - is that correct? I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Last edited: 10/04/2023 at 22:47 by Peter Bennet Reason: Example. Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 04:30 #151143 | |
andyallen4014
371 posts |
Is this why on the Upcoming Games list there is now a nore saying 'Europe/London times'? If so this now begs another question as the time shown on the game list is an hour out from the start time when I click on a game's details. User | Multiplayer Host | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 05:43 #151144 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Peter Bennet in post 151142 said:Correct. Depending on which definition of GMT you pick, GMT either exactly equals UTC or is within one second of it. Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 07:43 #151145 | |
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9pN1SEAp
1180 posts
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andyallen4014 in post 151143 said:Is this why on the Upcoming Games list there is now a nore saying 'Europe/London times'?Hi Andy, There’s a curio on the web site that the game will have the time based on the local time of the user when they created the game, not the local time applicable when the game actually takes place if that’s over a summer time change! (I’ll remind Chris). Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 14:36 #151148 | |
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simple68
80 posts
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I'm getting to that point in life when getting the correct day is a bonus Si Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 16:05 #151150 | |
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andyallen4014
371 posts |
9pN1SEAp in post 151145 said:andyallen4014 in post 151143 said:Hi Jamie,Is this why on the Upcoming Games list there is now a nore saying 'Europe/London times'?Hi Andy, I recall that from a debate that was had last year (or the year before!). What i've noted is the below inconsistency between the Upcoming Games section and the game itself which i've not noticed before.   Post has attachments. Log in to view them. User | Multiplayer Host | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 11/04/2023 at 17:39 #151153 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
Mantis 38447 for displaying server (UTC) time on the Game/Details page. I'm surprised nobody noticed that before as it appears to have always been like that! If you create a game during "winter time" to start in "summer time" and then the clocks change to "summer time" then I believe it would be off by an hour. Internally it's stored as UTC and then converted (or supposed to!) to your chosen timezone upon display so if you're in GMT and choose 10am then it'll store as 10am (GMT=UTC for the purposes of this paragraph). Then, when summer time kicks in, upon display it'll now subtract an hour and display as 9am BST (10am UTC). I think that's just something one has to bear in mind. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 14/04/2023 at 09:54 #151172 | |
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9pN1SEAp
1180 posts
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Not sure if you've changed anything, but adding a game for next Wednesday at 20:00, is now displaying 21:00 local time (Europe/London) in the main page, but 20:00 in the game details! Looks like the new game entry form is now assuming UTC - Confusing! Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Last edited: 14/04/2023 at 20:48 by 9pN1SEAp Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 15/04/2023 at 06:12 #151183 | |
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andyallen4014
371 posts |
9pN1SEAp in post 151172 said:Not sure if you've changed anything, but adding a game for next Wednesday at 20:00, is now displaying 21:00 local time (Europe/London) in the main page, but 20:00 in the game details!That's the exact issue I'd identified earlier in the thread. It is very confusing! User | Multiplayer Host | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
| Default timezone when not logged in 15/04/2023 at 17:25 #151184 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
We're looking at it. I have a vague idea of what it might be.
SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 9pN1SEAp |
| Default timezone when not logged in 18/04/2023 at 22:54 #151259 | |
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GeoffM
6376 posts |
GeoffM in post 151184 said:We're looking at it. I have a vague idea of what it might be.Now fixed. As suspected, it was doing a double timewarp. We believe the Manchester Chain start time was set to take account of this (although it was only wrong in the sidebar, not in the Game Details or Game Index pages) and we have adjusted it back accordingly. SimSig Boss Last edited: 18/04/2023 at 22:55 by GeoffM Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 9pN1SEAp |