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Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 12:15 #151486 | |
chrisdmadd
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Ive been thinking when playing some sims recently, there's nothing more frustrating for me than seeing a fully loaded 11 car pendolino pull into a terminus on sim, de-train, de-stock, re-stock, get cleaned, change crew and then board in 4 minutes and TRTS. I understand its up to the TT creator to have full knowledge of each traction type, which can be difficult. I would like to see a database (spreadsheet) that would show suggested Dwell times for timetable creators who maybe dont have the operational, local or set knowledge and would suggest realistic timings to be used. It would be open to all of the SimSig community to add their own knowledge too of course and could be updated accordingly. I can offer a start with my knowledge of 14X, 15X, 180, HST, MK3, MK4, MK5 sets, 80x sets. Would this be something timetable writers would be interested in utilising if available? Log in to reply The following user said thank you: ajax103 |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 12:44 #151487 | |
ajax103
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chrisdmadd in post 151486 said:Ive been thinking when playing some sims recently, there's nothing more frustrating for me than seeing a fully loaded 11 car pendolino pull into a terminus on sim, de-train, de-stock, re-stock, get cleaned, change crew and then board in 4 minutes and TRTS. I understand its up to the TT creator to have full knowledge of each traction type, which can be difficult.Anything to make the timetables more realistic is good. Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 13:00 #151488 | |
HST125Scorton
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I think this would be a grand idea along side the SimSig Length Calculator which I maintain. My only knowledge is 14x, 15x, 195, 319, 331, 769s. Upon recently I have been playing about using the Dwell times for coupling and uncoupling. Using 1min/30sec for Loco & Train and 1min for all units coupling. Also LE Run Round where the loco stop to change direction of around 3mins. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Last edited: 26/04/2023 at 13:00 by HST125Scorton Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: chrisdmadd, headshot119 |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 13:20 #151489 | |
chrisdmadd
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It wouldn't take much for those here that have either operational knowledge or experience of dwell times to get a fairly accurate database going.
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Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 13:41 #151490 | |
andyallen4014
![]() 364 posts |
chrisdmadd in post 151486 said:Ive been thinking when playing some sims recently, there's nothing more frustrating for me than seeing a fully loaded 11 car pendolino pull into a terminus on sim, de-train, de-stock, re-stock, get cleaned, change crew and then board in 4 minutes and TRTS. I understand its up to the TT creator to have full knowledge of each traction type, which can be difficult.Good call Chris. We could do with some driver experience ![]() User | Multiplayer Host | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 14:10 #151491 | |
peterb
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I would recommend the Timetable Planning Rules (formerly known as ROTP, I think) - Towards the bottom of the page, select the TPR folder for the year you require - Navigate to the most recent version - Choose the NR Region you're working in Section 5.3 lists the standard dwell or turnaround times - any local exceptions are listed by location. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Soton_Speed |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 14:34 #151492 | |
headshot119
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You can't apply the Timetable Planning Rules directly as the dwell times in the timetable. The TPRs are the minimum allowances built into the timetable to ensure the timetable runs on time. They are not the times it actually takes to perform the various tasks. Take Cardiff Bay as an example 2B02 arrives 0651 2S02 departs 0654 Compliant with the TPRs which say 3 minutes for a reversal of a non GWR 14X-15X DMU, but if you apply a 3 minute dwell time to the train, any late running at all and you'll decimate the branch for the day in sim as the train will never make up any time. In real life the driver and guard can turn it around in a much shorter time. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: flabberdacks, Meld |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 15:07 #151494 | |
Meld
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Another TPR example The overall reversal time for a 390 9/11 car is 15 minutes except Wolverhampton where its 30 minutes. Any join/divide for a LNWR 350 is 9 minutes. As Karl mentioned these timings are what TT planners must allow in planning a schedule and not reflect the on the ground practicality. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 26/04/2023 at 15:30 #151497 | |
eps125
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Meld in post 151494 said:Another TPR exampleFor 390s the immobilise time is 5 minutes, and the mobilise time is 10 minutes. So theoretically 15 minutes is possible (if using two separate drivers as when remanning takes longer) from a drivers perspective but at Euston you are never going to deboard and board in 15 minutes. A real world fairly typical example from last week when my train came in 12 minutes before departure. We left 15L and that was without a revenue block or proper cleaning, and yes sometimes they do a revenue block on delayed trains! Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 27/04/2023 at 12:10 #151527 | |
chrisdmadd
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Good to read some views on it. Im not suggesting we should apply the standard TRP's to all dwell times as I agree this would end up slowing things down far too much when services are delayed and those dwell times applied. What im suggesting is we use the SimSig communities knowledge and experience on realistic dwell times which will enable timetable writers to look up recommended dwell times for minimum turnarounds during disruption. Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 15/06/2023 at 01:24 #152173 | |
markymark2000
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I would fully support such a spreadsheet. I always find it so annoying that most timetables have no dwell times set and the only reference is the timetable planning rules for any indication on how long it takes for the trains to reverse or terminate etc.
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Custom Dwell Time Database 15/06/2023 at 08:30 #152176 | |
HST125Scorton
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Using the TPR for Class 350s with the 9min dwell applied for Join/Divide seems to cause a lot of delays in the early morning and end of service times. For example I have 5F28 3x 350 [12-Car] that comes out of Crewe CS arrives into Crewe on time, then has to divide twice to make 3 separate trains and services, 1F28, F29 & 1F30. This makes a total of 27min dwell. So far I have the following and it seems to work although I'm still experimenting. Class 15x [150, 153, 156 & 158], Join/Uncouple set to 1min/30 Sec, Station dwell if running late max of 3min. Class 350, Join/Uncouple set to 2min, Station dwell if running late max of 3min. Class 22x & 390, Join/Uncouple set to 3min [22x Only], Station dwell if running late max of 3min/30sec. [Not tested at Euston, although turn around will be more dwell] Class 195, 323, 331, Join Uncouple set to 2min, Station dwell if running late max of 2min/30sec. Class 80x Series, Join/Uncouple set to 3min, Station dwell if running late max of 3min. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Last edited: 15/06/2023 at 08:41 by HST125Scorton Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 15/06/2023 at 16:41 #152178 | |
Guts
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eps125 in post 151497 said:Meld in post 151494 said:Well regarding Pendolinos, I've seen it done numerous times in only 9mins, average 12mins, when I was a Signalman at Wembley Mainline.Another TPR exampleFor 390s the immobilise time is 5 minutes, and the mobilise time is 10 minutes. So theoretically 15 minutes is possible (if using two separate drivers as when remanning takes longer) from a drivers perspective but at Euston you are never going to deboard and board in 15 minutes. A real world fairly typical example from last week when my train came in 12 minutes before departure. We left 15L and that was without a revenue block or proper cleaning, and yes sometimes they do a revenue block on delayed trains! The Engine Arranger would liase with the Forward driver and get him in position; Cleaning of a Pendolino is done on route, not on arrival, which quickens turnaround. They would stage the Catering on the platform ready for a quick changeover, the passengers would be told just as it arrives. Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 15/06/2023 at 16:45 #152179 | |
Guts
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London North Western stick religiously to their TPR's which is based on train length and distance between change of platform; and regularly refuse to take a train that is too late. (I worked in Timetable planning and HS2) Southeast trains have a max turnaround of 7mins regardless of length. (A former driver told me 2weeks ago. He hated it) Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 15/06/2023 at 21:05 #152181 | |
eps125
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Guts in post 152178 said:eps125 in post 151497 said:An average turn around of 12 minutes at Euston is a pipe dream these days! The days of bending rules to keep the job moving are well and truly in the past. As I said previously, anyone in the union will insist on their 15 minutes as a minimum. My mobilisation starts when the previous drivers immobilisation ends, it requires them to be off the train, and it starts in the block end cab.Meld in post 151494 said:Well regarding Pendolinos, I've seen it done numerous times in only 9mins, average 12mins, when I was a Signalman at Wembley Mainline.Another TPR exampleFor 390s the immobilise time is 5 minutes, and the mobilise time is 10 minutes. So theoretically 15 minutes is possible (if using two separate drivers as when remanning takes longer) from a drivers perspective but at Euston you are never going to deboard and board in 15 minutes. A real world fairly typical example from last week when my train came in 12 minutes before departure. We left 15L and that was without a revenue block or proper cleaning, and yes sometimes they do a revenue block on delayed trains! Cleaning of 390s is done on arrival now as there aren't as many on train cleaners. The bare minimim they do is the a whip round with a bin bag and the toilets. DHL are also told not to go anywhere near a crew door with catering truck until drivers have handed over, as they get in the way of the process. In times not that long ago we would let the TM bring the train list after departure to speed things up too, and that's another thing that doesn't happen anymore. Platform staff also have to walk through the train after deboarding but before boarding for a security check too. It's all minutes that add up. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Hap, drenahmeti22 |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 01:49 #152182 | |
BenWright
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I think it ultimately depends on the sim. As others have discussed, a 390 can turn around somewhat quicker at other stations than Euston and I assume it's the same for most terminus stations regardless of class of train
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Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 09:57 #152184 | |
Champs450007
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On SWR our side is: Class 444/450 4 minutes to attach/detach Class 158/159/455/458/707 2 minutes Changing ends varies by train length but it's roughly about 3-4 minutes for a 8-12 coach train plus 6 minutes setting up time. Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 13:27 #152185 | |
0D07
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While a spreadsheet is a good idea can I ask that it not placed into the core code as this would have big implications for those of us that create sims without the new types of EMU & DMU's or if it is then can it be ear specific so that it will not stop BR/Early Privatised era Timetables from being done. Also against what is on a diagram can be done quicker that what is printed on paper. I know from my experience from coupling a locos to wagons and uncoupling it can be done a lot quicker than the 3mins that is printed in real life a minute tops for doing both tasks. Delta Zero Seven Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 58050 |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 15:09 #152186 | |
HST125Scorton
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0D07 in post 152185 said:While a spreadsheet is a good idea can I ask that it not placed into the core code as this would have big implications for those of us that create sims without the new types of EMU & DMU's or if it is then can it be ear specific so that it will not stop BR/Early Privatised era Timetables from being done.I'm with you on this as I don't think it would be best placed into core code. I'm still experimenting with modern DMU/EMUs on my own timetables. I have my locos uncouple/couple within in 1min as seen in real life. As most replies this is more of what actually happens against what happens within timetables in SimSig. Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 15:42 #152187 | |
Steamer
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HST125Scorton in post 152186 said:0D07 in post 152185 said:Something to bear in mind when coupling is what the brake test and/or pull-away test requirements are. For example, at the pres line I volunteer at, we're required to do a continuity test after coupling up- so while a fast footplate crew could be finished 'underneath' within a minute, it still takes another minute or two for a driver to create a brake and for me to walk to the other end of the train, destroy the brake then get into position ready for dispatch. The latter part isn't immediately apparent to a casual observer. Of course, the requirements vary depending on the period and company operating the train.While a spreadsheet is a good idea can I ask that it not placed into the core code as this would have big implications for those of us that create sims without the new types of EMU & DMU's or if it is then can it be ear specific so that it will not stop BR/Early Privatised era Timetables from being done.I'm with you on this as I don't think it would be best placed into core code. I'm still experimenting with modern DMU/EMUs on my own timetables. I have my locos uncouple/couple within in 1min as seen in real life. As most replies this is more of what actually happens against what happens within timetables in SimSig. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Hap, HST125Scorton, Dionysusnu, Meld |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 16:28 #152188 | |
58050
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Steamer in post 152187 said:HST125Scorton in post 152186 said:What you put is very true regarding the driver re-creating the brake pressure & you walking back along the train to the loco. However like in my own BR era timetables & take Carlisle for example they'd be more than one shunter carrying out duties on some of those over night services through there. Not only is the guard of the train involved, but you'd also have a shunter on the platform carrying out duties as well as another shunter on the pilot loco attaching or detaching vehicles. So between the 3 of them jobs such as brakes tests, coupling & joining stock would be done very proficiently & also be done in a minute or 2 max & furthermore nor would they then walk all the way back along the train to the loco. Usually the brake blocks on the last 3 vehicles of the train would be checked, not the whole train. The driver & guard would be looking at the guages in the loco & brake coach of the train to ensure the brake pipe had been completely destroyed & again from the brake guages then watched for the brake pipe to be re-created[signalled to the driver by hand signal or bardic lamp subject to it being night or day. If you have ever watched this in operation it all runs as a well oiled machined as these members of staff do it daily & several times a day.0D07 in post 152185 said:Something to bear in mind when coupling is what the brake test and/or pull-away test requirements are. For example, at the pres line I volunteer at, we're required to do a continuity test after coupling up- so while a fast footplate crew could be finished 'underneath' within a minute, it still takes another minute or two for a driver to create a brake and for me to walk to the other end of the train, destroy the brake then get into position ready for dispatch. The latter part isn't immediately apparent to a casual observer. Of course, the requirements vary depending on the period and company operating the train.While a spreadsheet is a good idea can I ask that it not placed into the core code as this would have big implications for those of us that create sims without the new types of EMU & DMU's or if it is then can it be ear specific so that it will not stop BR/Early Privatised era Timetables from being done.I'm with you on this as I don't think it would be best placed into core code. I'm still experimenting with modern DMU/EMUs on my own timetables. I have my locos uncouple/couple within in 1min as seen in real life. As most replies this is more of what actually happens against what happens within timetables in SimSig. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: HST125Scorton |
Custom Dwell Time Database 16/06/2023 at 21:38 #152189 | |
JamesN
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I think the breadth of replies here has pretty much made the point: There isn’t really a standard to document here. There are allowances, and some timetable writers may feel from their own experience that those allowances are reflective of the time taken. Some timetable writers however seem to feel the physical time taken is what should be reflected, and there are differing opinions as to what level of detail that goes to; and how to reach it. Experts here can probably offer guidance as to how long X should taken given Y and Z; but I don’t think it nearly fits into a database/table of sorts. Those questions are probably best left as questions to the community. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
Custom Dwell Time Database 17/06/2023 at 00:01 #152190 | |
bill_gensheet
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Some of the odd behaviour noted is likely down to Mantis 31269 (default dwell times not being used). When not setting specific dwells (at location, or by train type) the core sim code is expected to apply a sensible default. I recall it as being "walk at 1.5 m/s (3.36 mph), plus add a random time between 0 and 15 seconds, subject to an overall minimum of 30 seconds." It does not do this at present and you get reversals made in 25 seconds: 06:32:35 5J03 has entered: Motherwell Weighs CS ... 06:39:34 5J03 arrived at Motherwell Sig M402/404 (rev) 2 min(s) late 06:39:59 5J03 departed from Motherwell Sig M402/404 (rev) 1 min(s) late 5J03 is a 120m train, no specific train type or location dwells set. In this case it is initially being driven from the rear so I *should* need a custom location dwell of 30 seconds to override the 80-95 seconds set by the formula. Last edited: 17/06/2023 at 00:02 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Custom Dwell Time Database 17/06/2023 at 07:31 #152192 | |
headshot119
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The thread has drifted quite a bit from the initial post, which was a request to somehow document reasonable dwell times for timetable writers to use. A lot of the replies show just how hard it is to accurately document what's needed, and there's a variety of opinions on what the minimums should be. That said a table on the wiki giving suggested minimum values would likely be no bad thing, timetable writers would just need to be aware it may need to be deviated from in some circumstances. We certainly won't be be trying to include dwell times for every single train type in the core code, as I can only imagine how many sleepless nights that would lead to. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: chrisdmadd, postal, HST125Scorton, marychristmaseverybody |
Custom Dwell Time Database 06/08/2023 at 13:14 #152675 | |
HST125Scorton
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Here is my Dwell Times for units after a bit of WIP I think these work ok for now. I've tried to keep LNW/AWC as close to possible. These feature in my Crewe Timetables that I've been testing for while and work as should. Class 15x/17x/19x Join 5 Min Uncouple 5 Min Station Reverse 3 Min [Non Terminating] Terminate Forward 3 Min Terminate Reverse 3 Min Class 185/22x Join 5 Min Uncouple 5 Min Station Reverse 3 Min [Non Terminating] Terminate Forward 5 Min Terminate Reverse 9 Min Class 319/323/33x/769 Join 5 Min Uncouple 5 Min Station Reverse 3 Min [Non Terminating] Terminate Forward 3 Min Terminate Reverse 3 Min Class 350/397 Join 9 Min [N/A for Class 397s] Uncouple 9 Min [N/A for Class 397s] Station Reverse 5 Min [Non Terminating] Terminate Forward 5 Min Terminate Reverse 9 Min Class 390 Join N/A [10 Min to Thunderbird] Uncouple N/A [10 Min to Thunderbird] Terminate Forward 5 Min Terminate Reverse 15 Min Class 80x Join 5 Min Uncouple 5 Min Station Reverse 5 Min Terminate Forward 5 Min Terminate Reverse 9 Min Aaron (AJRO) | Timetable Writer Last edited: 06/08/2023 at 13:15 by HST125Scorton Reason: More Info Log in to reply |