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| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 09/09/2024 at 08:02 #158467 | |
Anothersignalman
96 posts |
Hi, I've just noticed that trip P250-10 (Arsenal 8:07pm, Finsbury 8:09pm, Manor 8:10;30) is listed in the XML file description field as Quote: <Description>Uxbridge to </Description> What is the correct destination? Google Maps reckons there's presently an 8:11pm to Cockfosters; I don't know if that's the shifted 8:09pm service or a completely different trip, but it matches the Wikipedia listing of all off-peak trips to Cockfosters except a handful of Northfields-Arnos Grove shorts. The description for "RuisliP to Oakwood" e.g P254-3 also has a capitalisation problem. Also, am I correct in understanding that each trip only has one time for each location (barring some at Seven Sisters), rather than a separate arrival and departure time? What would the dwell at each stop actually be? Thanks, David Last edited: 09/09/2024 at 08:31 by Anothersignalman Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 09/09/2024 at 11:37 #158471 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
Underground timetables only have one time for each location with very rare exceptions (there are none in the current Victoria Line WTT). However, they use notes in the time to indicate a booked dwell. For example, "a" between the hours and minutes of the timetable entry means 20 to 30 seconds additional dwell in the platform, "A" means 35 to 45 seconds, up to "L" means 5m35s to 5m45s (there are 23 such codes in total). There's no standard dwell time listed in the WTT. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 09/09/2024 at 13:10 #158473 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
For context, the reason I'm asking these is because I'm converting the XML to a graph. I did a similar conversion for one of the Aston schedules. With the runtimes rounded to 30-second increments and no dwell times, it's possible that the headways shown in the Simsig might not match reality. On the other hand, as I understand it the program uses linear acceleration, so maybe that degree of accuracy isn't worth the effort anyway? Further things as I find them, on top of the three things above: 4. Is trip V214-2E correct in running VICTORIA > VICTORIASDG > VICTORIA, or should it change ID when reversing in the siding? Same for V214-26E and V214-27E. 5. Is there a reason the runtime for V201-20E is 120 seconds, but V202-20E is 150 seconds? 6. Are there any other instances of unique runtimes within a pattern, that I haven't found yet? Contrast with V214-27, which has 120 seconds in lieu of the normal 90 seconds KINGSX > EUSTON, but that's OK because it's flagged with a different description. Another example is V214-2, with +2min dwell at SEVEN when all other trains in that direction appear to be +30sec (including the other Victoria to Walthamstow move, V203-1). Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 10/09/2024 at 13:59 #158483 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts 
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If this is the timetable I believe I originally wrote, it was a very long time ago and I am not sure I still have the WTT it was taken from or the various notes/versions/changes made to the timetable. I will have a look when time permits. The timetable is of the pre-modernised Victoria Line as it is today, with the old signalling system and rolling stock. Underground timetables do have the odd variance here and there throughout the day. Sometimes small runtime changes occur just once or twice an hour for recovery purposes, or may only occur once or twice a day. Rather than have arrival and departure times, we show departure times with a letter to denote how much before that time a train should arrive, in half-minute increments . Starting at "a" for 30 seconds earlier, then "b" for 1 minute etc. So a train shown to depart at 18c43 would be booked to arrive 90 seconds earlier (newer automatic lines have moved to 15-second increments, including the current Victoria line). Dwell times for each station vary depending on whether it is a regulating station, is a station which is prior to a junction, or is just a general station - and even then this changes depending on which zone it is in. A "general" station in Zone 1 will have greater dwell time than a similar station in Zone 4, but overall you would assume it is between 20 and 30 seconds. Stations on junctions etc. may see increased dwell time in order to regulate a train into its correct path. In terms of the Piccadilly entries, much as the timetable was quite thoroughly tested, because each Picc train is visible for only a short time it is quite possible a couple of small typos may have slipped through without being noticed. Testing was more focused on the Victoria Line itself. However, the timetable was taken from the 2009 WTT and was as accurate as I could make it. It is highly likely that since 2009 to the present day there have been alterations to timings to change the previous 20:09 service to 20:11. Most tubelines see revised/re-issued timetables each year or so. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 11/09/2024 at 17:24 #158498 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
Thanks metcontrol. Having now done a full analysis of the graph, it looks like all times are consistent within each section except moves between SevenRev, Seven Sisters, Finsbury and Tottenham; and one trip which has +30sec KingsX - Euston (V214-27); there's also some variance Brixton to Brixton sidings. If you do find the schedule, can you check the departure time of V226-27? You've shown it as a 30 second turnaround at Walthamstow. There's also something weird with V226: * V226-18 ex Brixton 18:09:30, arr Seven Sisters 18:37 * V226-18E ex Seven Sisters 18:42, arr Seven T/B 18:43:30 * V226-19E ex Seven T/B 18:53:30, arr Seven Sisters 18:55 * V226-19 ex Seven Sisters 15:55:30, arr Brixton 16:23:30 * V226-20 ex Brixton 19:28:00, arr Walthamstow 20:04 Based on this, I'm fairly confident V226-19 should be three hours later. The same applies to V236-18. Both V201-20 and V211-31 depart Walthamstow at 24:07:30. I suspect V211-30 should form V226-27, then V226-26 should form a rescheduled V211-31 approximately 10 minutes later. Last edited: 12/09/2024 at 06:41 by Anothersignalman Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 12/09/2024 at 16:52 #158501 | |
madaboutrains
316 posts |
Anothersignalman in post 158473 said:For context, the reason I'm asking these is because I'm converting the XML to a graph. I did a similar conversion for one of the Aston schedules. With the runtimes rounded to 30-second increments and no dwell times, it's possible that the headways shown in the Simsig might not match reality. On the other hand, as I understand it the program uses linear acceleration, so maybe that degree of accuracy isn't worth the effort anyway?How do you make a graph? RIP Feltham Panel 1 Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 12/09/2024 at 18:40 #158502 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts
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Anothersignalman in post 158498 said:Thanks metcontrol.I have found the paper copy of the Working Timetable I used, however the electronic draft versions of the timetable are elsewhere (I think I know where, but it will have to be a later date when I load them up to look). But in any case, hopefully I can answer some of the questions. Also, on checking, the latest version I had was v4.1.2 so it may be that the sim's creator - Peter Bennet - may have tweaked the last version. He is certainly credited with submitting v4.1.3 to the site in 2014. I cannot recall when I finalised v4.1.2. V226-27 does indeed have an error. The actual departure from Walthamstow should be 00:23:00 V226-19 also is indeed an error. The departure from Seven Sisters is 18:55:30. V236-19 is another error. The departure ex Walthamstow should be 18:50:30 V201-20 does depart Walthamstow 00:07:30 V211-31 should depart Walthamstow 00:13:00 With those errors corrected, everything should look ok. To look at the questions you posed earlier: V214-2 dwell time at Seven Sisters - it's easier to spot why when you have the whole timetable infront of you. The dwell is there to create a 6-minute headway which exists from V224-2 at 06:12:00. The northbound departures are then 06:18, 06:24, 06:30, 06:36 then it moves to a 4/5 minute headway service. If V214-2 left as soon as it arrived, the headway would be 06:12, 06:16, 06:24 - so a 4 then an 8. Other examples exist and they are as I suggested before, for reasons of recovery or balancing headways etc. V201-20E/V202-20E - both have the run times shown. There are numerous reasons why there may be a difference, and this can include anything from recovery time to Train Operator duty length - yes even for the sake of 30 seconds. At no point do the Train Numbers (on this sim the 3 characters following the "V" ) ever change. On LU each train stays as the same "running number" all day, and just the trip numbers (the last 2 digits on this sim) step up each time there is a change in direction. Which brings me to another of your earlier questions: V214-2E - Yes V214 should not change to trip 2 until it has reversed. The same is true with the other trips you mention. The letters used against the trips helped to identify separate trips for the purpose of the sim and also for easier sorting of certain actions. I think a couple of events have become mixed-up when compiling things - I can recall a few evenings working on this very late at night - which could very well explain 1 or 2 other things. Just interesting how I recall testing the timetable and sim over and over again from beginning to end with a couple of the more noticeable errors (trains running 3 hours late) completely missing me. Perhaps running in ARS and with the line often encountering delays, many trains would be late and the 180+ minute trains would be lost in the mess. Last edited: 12/09/2024 at 18:41 by metcontrol Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Anothersignalman, mldaureol |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 13/09/2024 at 09:24 #158503 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
I think things like this would generally be a lot easier to detect if there was a simple way to convert 'savedtimetable.xml' to a graph. That's how I found these issues; manually going through it doesn't make them obvious. Though I am a bit surprised that the field <AssociatedTrain> doesn't include a test to make sure the next train is a later time than the present train. I still need to enter the arrival times into my graph for Seven Sisters; once that's done I can stitch together a graph with random colours for each trip, or I can go the extra step of sorting the lines so that the line colours are consistent to each consist through the day (working within the limits of LibreOffice Calc, which doesn't have a way to format chart lines based on a text input). I've also noticed that, particularly during peak hours, trains are scheduled to arrive at Walthamstow and Brixton while their allocated platform is still occupied; it takes a minute or two to clear, then the next train can enter and turn around. I don't know if this counts as 'late running' for the purpose of the in-game scoring mechanism? Re the four errors that need correcting, who is responsible for issuing a v4.1.4? I don't want to edit just my copy of the timetable if it'll be overwritten next time there's a software update. Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 13/09/2024 at 09:25 #158504 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
madaboutrains in post 158501 said:Anothersignalman in post 158473 said:Manually entering every time into a libreoffice calc spreadsheet. This one took about a week, and it's still not finished.For context, the reason I'm asking these is because I'm converting the XML to a graph. I did a similar conversion for one of the Aston schedules. With the runtimes rounded to 30-second increments and no dwell times, it's possible that the headways shown in the Simsig might not match reality. On the other hand, as I understand it the program uses linear acceleration, so maybe that degree of accuracy isn't worth the effort anyway?How do you make a graph? Last edited: 13/09/2024 at 09:26 by Anothersignalman Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 13/09/2024 at 10:17 #158505 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
What was the minimum headway on the up and down mainlines? Asking because 202-6 leaves Seven Sisters at 9:03:30, followed by 225-5 at 9:04:00; thirty second interval. I don't know if that's an error or intentional, but I'd guess based on other patterns that 225-5 should have some excess dwell added.
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| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 13/09/2024 at 15:42 #158508 | |
postal
5264 posts |
Anothersignalman in post 158503 said:I don't want to edit just my copy of the timetable if it'll be overwritten next time there's a software update.Save your copy of the TT with a different name then it won't be overwritten. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 13/09/2024 at 15:42 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 13/09/2024 at 23:06 #158512 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
metcontrol in post 158502 said:I'm afraid it's too long ago for me to remember anything about that. Anothersignalman in post 158503 said: We can upload a new version, can I suggest you and Met agree between yourselves what needs to be corrected? Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 07:12 #158515 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
Thanks Peter. As an aside, who would be the right person to speak to, to develop a reorganised interface for VicLul with no other changes, intended to fit the whole map on one screen? I suggested this about three years ago here - https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/53457 - though in retrospect a slightly tweaked version with signals VJ12, A439, VJLOS and VJ8 on the middle line would make more sense. @Metcontrol, I'm happy to maintain the list. So far, we've identified four trips that need to be rescheduled: • V226-27 should depart Walthamstow 00:23:00 • V226-19 should depart Seven Sisters 18:55:30 • V236-19 should depart Walthamstow 18:50:30 • V211-31 should depart Walthamstow 00:13:00 Additionally: • The description of P250-10 needs to be amended to "Uxbridge to Cockfosters", unless you have evidence to the contrary? • All trips with a single digit suffix, i.e. V221-1 or V223-1E, should have a zero inserted to keep things sorted in the correct order o.e. V221-01 or V223-01E. I hadn't mentioned this above, but it makes checking much easier. The changes have to be in both the ID and AssociatedTrain fields. • I'd like to see VS220 renumbered to VS22, unless that conflicts with WC22 or BX22? • I'd like to see VS221 renumbered to VS203-08E. Otherwise, I'll continue scanning for suspiciously close headways. Are you able to check the arrival vs prior departure times at Walthamstow and Brixton? All trips are presently scheduled for 2:30 Stockwell > Brixton and Blackhorse > Walthamstow, but some or all trips will need that increased by perhaps 2-3 minutes depending on the clearance and point throw time at the scissor crossings. Last edited: 14/09/2024 at 07:24 by Anothersignalman Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 07:50 #158517 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
Anothersignalman in post 158515 said:Thanks Peter. As an aside, who would be the right person to speak to, to develop a reorganised interface for VicLul with no other changes, intended to fit the whole map on one screen? I suggested this about three years ago here - https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/53457 - though in retrospect a slightly tweaked version with signals VJ12, A439, VJLOS and VJ8 on the middle line would make more sense.Me, and to be honest I have no plans (as they say) or time to do anything of that scale to this Sim. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 08:15 #158519 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts
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Anothersignalman in post 158515 said:@Metcontrol, I'm happy to maintain the list. So far, we've identified four trips that need to be rescheduled:I am quite happy for you or anyone else to correct / tweak etc. then later upload. I'm afraid my SimSig time became less and less available a couple of years ago, and currently I doubt I would have much time to make all the checks and tweaks needed, so feel free to make that v4.1.4. Unfortunately the WTT for the Vic Line is in paper format and I would not have the time to scan each and every page in. I do not appear to have the original material for the Picc Line, and the earlier versions have vanished through various computer changes over the years. As both myself and Peter have said, it was a very long time ago now. Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 10:46 #158521 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
metcontrol in post 158519 said:Unfortunately the WTT for the Vic Line is in paper format and I would not have the time to scan each and every page in. How many trips are listed per page? If I narrow the search down to, say, four or six pages' worth of times, would that be reasonable? We could then base assumptions on those. Alternatively we could just toss the official WTT and use its principles to generate a fresh, more straightforward system. Log in to reply |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 18:25 #158531 | |
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metcontrol
227 posts
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From some of what you have said I think you may be trying to decipher the core run times of the line at that time without the recovery times that are included in the timetable and sim. The image I have hopefully uploaded is 1 small piece of the timetable, but it is the the run times the timetable is built with - recovery is added on top of these timings. Recalling a couple of things at the time of the sim being made LU were reluctant to have too many details shared in the public domain. They still pay for the roof over my head and put food on my table so I think it would be unwise of me to share much more than this small image, but I hope it helps.  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 14/09/2024 at 20:31 #158535 | |
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Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
I've dug through my records and I don't have any scanned copies of the timetable, I suspect I do have hard copies in the loft somewhere. I do recall that LU WTTs have been released under FOI and can be found on "Whatdotheyknow", whether the relevant ones are there I'm not sure. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Anothersignalman |
| Possible incorrect description - Victoria Line 2009 - Mondays to Fridays v4.1.3 17/09/2024 at 17:21 #158573 | |
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Anothersignalman
96 posts |
metcontrol in post 158531 said:From some of what you have said I think you may be trying to decipher the core run times of the line at that time without the recovery times that are included in the timetable and sim. The image I have hopefully uploaded is 1 small piece of the timetable, but it is the the run times the timetable is built with - recovery is added on top of these timings. Thanks, that's a significant help. The other thing I'm trying to establish is a rough guide for the base frequencies. Having pulled apart the departure times at Brixton, I think it's something like this: From To Frequency 05:05:00 05:40:00 00:15:00 05:40:00 06:00:00 00:05:00 06:00:00 06:40:00 00:04:00 06:40:00 07:00:00 00:03:30 07:00:00 07:15:00 00:03:00 07:15:00 07:45:00 00:02:30 07:45:00 09:45:00 00:02:00 09:45:00 10:15:00 00:02:30 10:15:00 15:45:00 00:03:00 15:45:00 16:30:00 00:02:30 16:30:00 19:20:00 00:02:00 19:20:00 19:45:00 00:02:30 19:45:00 22:15:00 00:03:00 22:15:00 23:12:00 00:03:30 23:12:00 23:00:00 00:04:00 23:00:00 23:30:00 00:04:30 23:30:00 24:25:00 00:05:00 with the caveat that where trips are closer together than 3min, one in every three trips from Brixton shunts at Seven Sisters instead of continuing to Walthamstow. Additional trips from Seven Sisters run to Brixton to form AM peak trips. The schedule as written doesn't have much terminating at Victoria, but in theory that could work similarly. Last edited: 17/09/2024 at 17:22 by Anothersignalman Reason: None given Log in to reply |