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| R buttons Query 12/08/2015 at 13:53 #75044 | |
Roadrunner
111 posts |
First and simplest question - what is their proper name? I can guess at what they do as there is one on King's Cross. They seem to cancel a route with a right-click and then put it back with a left-click. If that is correct, then what is the difference between an E button and an R button, as they appear to do the same thing? One other thing, R buttons are seen mostly on auto signals, but the Salisbury sim uses them on manual signals. Is that significant or do they simply do the same thing. If someone has a few free moments, perhaps they could update the wiki, as I couldn't find a mention of them. There might be one somewhere, of course, that I didn't spot. And I know how busy everyone is, so just add it to the to do list. When I know how they are supposed to work, I might be able to sleep better. Ha ha! Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 12/08/2015 at 14:01 #75045 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
"R" buttons, where present, are always proven, so they are guaranteed to replace a signal to danger. They're Replacement buttons, I guess, rather than Emergency Replacement. Whether or not this is true for "E" buttons depends on the area, but for SimSig's purposes often you can surmise that where no "R" buttons are present on the whole sim where you'd obviously need proving (eg a level crossing), "E" buttons are probably proven.
Last edited: 12/08/2015 at 14:02 by Muzer Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 12/08/2015 at 14:26 #75046 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
The Wiki article for them though it does need a bit of a tidy up. Several of my simulations use them on repeater and distant signals. In a mechanical signalbox and even on some panels it is possible for the signalman to replace his distant signal to caution, and of course he has an indication of this, either via repeater, or by looking out the window. "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 12/08/2015 at 14:41 #75048 | |
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JamesN
1608 posts 
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Quote:First and simplest question - what is their proper name?Varies from installation to installation, but "Replacement Switch" (sometimes Emergency....) Quote: I can guess at what they do as there is one on King's Cross. They seem to cancel a route with a right-click and then put it back with a left-click. If that is correct, then what is the difference between an E button and an R button, as they appear to do the same thing?Careful - They don't cancel routes, they merely force their associated signal to danger. If you had one on a controlled signal, the route lights would remain lit. In SimSig, and in real VDU installations this is done by right-clicking (or equivalent thereof) as you describe. Quote: One other thing, R buttons are seen mostly on auto signals, but the Salisbury sim uses them on manual signals. Is that significant or do they simply do the same thing.Looking at Salisbury, I don't see any on "manual" (controlled) signals - what may be a little confusing here is there are no little ticks on the signal stems to denote they are autos - this is quite common in newer installations. In days gone by a signal with an auto plate was deemed to be passable at danger under the driver's own authority if they were unable to make contact with the controlling signalbox within a reasonable time frame. Obviously this isn't appropriate where, like on Salisbury, you have ground frames in auto sections. A signal at Danger could mean points set against train, train ahead shunting into a siding and so on. Such signals were therefore either designated as "Semi Auto" or not plated as auto at all - both meant the signal was not passable without signaller's authority. All of the "manual" signals with R buttons on Salisbury fall into that latter category. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: AndyG |
| R buttons Query 12/08/2015 at 15:49 #75050 | |
Steamer
3985 posts |
" said:If someone has a few free moments, perhaps they could update the wiki, as I couldn't find a mention of them.In addition to the page linked to by Karl, they're included in the symbols page. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 13/08/2015 at 10:14 #75076 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
Many thanks for those interesting replies, very informative. I have seen the Replacement buttons on the LTS sim on a bi-directional line. Do they cancel the route in one direction, so that a route in the opposite direction can be signalled? One more thing, do E buttons cancel the route or just set the signal to danger? As I have only seen them on auto signals that do not colour the route white, I can't tell from the display. I couldn't see an R button on the symbols page of the wiki. Perhaps they could be added at some stage. The Signals Technical page was very interesting. Now I have a New York Subway simulator to play with. Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 13/08/2015 at 10:56 #75078 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
I'd argue that trying to apply the concept of a route to an auto signal is a fruitless task - it simply shows red if the track ahead is occupied or a replacement switch has been activated, and non-red if neither of the above is the case.
Last edited: 13/08/2015 at 10:57 by Danny252 Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 13/08/2015 at 12:56 #75082 | |
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Jay_G
54 posts |
Precisely. Auto signals are generally used in areas of plain line track, thus they technically have no route. The official rule book description for auto signals is something like "signals that are controlled by the passage of trains" As danny put very well, all a replacement switch does is force it to display a red aspect only. If you looked at it in the same way as a controlled signal, it would still have the white line in, as all you've done is change the aspect shown, nothing more. Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 13/08/2015 at 14:52 #75092 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
" said:They don't cancel the route at all. Quote: They just set the signal to danger. They only appear on auto signals, so there is no route to be affected. Quote: I can't see it either. It's identical to an E button except that the label is "R" instead of "E". Basically "R" means that the action of the button is verified back to the interlocking. So if the signal symbol on the screen turns red or the relevant lamp on the panel lights or goes out, the signal is definitely red and the signaller can rely on this. "E" means that the action is *not* verified and it's possible that a fault has left the signal at yellow or green even though the panel/screen says it is red. Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 14/08/2015 at 01:00 #75104 | |
flabberdacks
636 posts |
" said:Many thanks for those interesting replies, very informative.Just for a bit of clarification, an automatic signal does not have a 'route'. Automatic signals are not governed by setting of a 'route' - there is a big difference between an automatic signal, and a controlled signal working in auto mode (blue A button). Automatic signals simply look at track occupancy ahead (or bi-di direction) to decide which aspect to show, returning to full clear as soon as they can following the passage of a train. If there is an operational reason for the signaller to force an automatic signal to display Danger when the signal wants to show a proceed indication, that is what the E and R buttons are for. edit: Regarding LTS bi-directional, again as the automatic signals do not have routes of their own, using an R button does not affect your ability to set routes in either direction - the replacement button only holds that specific signal at danger and performs no other task. Last edited: 14/08/2015 at 02:18 by flabberdacks Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Roadrunner |
| R buttons Query 15/08/2015 at 22:48 #75145 | |
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Roadrunner
111 posts |
Thanks to all for your replies, especially to Flabberdack for his summary which put it all together.
Last edited: 15/08/2015 at 22:48 by Roadrunner Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2015 at 00:26 #75146 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:First and simplest question - what is their proper name?I hope this helps Emergency Replacement Button (switch).  Replacement Button (switch) 
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 16/08/2015 at 00:27 by Hooverman Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Roadrunner |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2015 at 19:57 #75172 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Just to throw a spanner in the works. There are places where R buttons are non-gauerenteed. I believe Feltham's replacements buttons are R buttons but only the ones on the SSI are guaranteed. FF Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2015 at 23:28 #75177 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:Just to throw a spanner in the works. There are places where R buttons are non-gauerenteed. I believe Feltham's replacements buttons are R buttons but only the ones on the SSI are guaranteed.That's the same for my place, but you probably know that already. In fact we only had 4 proved R buttons until P7 came along, but since then there have been quite a lot of signal/panel mods that have given us a right mix of proved and non proved R buttons in our RRI areas. But those areas that are now Smartlock have all buttons proved as you said above. Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 17/08/2015 at 08:35 #75180 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
Yes, I believe historically some companies / regions put an E on their buttons and others put an R in their buttons. None of them were guaranteed. At some point during the 80's it became practice to use E for non guaranteed and R for guaranteed. Work not not retrospectively carried out to change R's to E's to comply with the new standard. FF Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 15/08/2022 at 19:09 #147582 | |
9pN1SEAp
1181 posts
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In Shrewsbury there are R buttons on some of the distants e.g. NH1, HT31 but most of the time the crossings prevent the use of a long route through the box. Please could someone explain these controls? Would you not just pull back the homes or starters to return the distant? Thanks Jamie Jamie S (JAMS) Last edited: 15/08/2022 at 19:14 by 9pN1SEAp Reason: rephreased Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 15/08/2022 at 20:49 #147583 | |
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Steamer
3985 posts |
9pN1SEAp in post 147582 said:In Shrewsbury there are R buttons on some of the distants e.g. NH1, HT31 but most of the time the crossings prevent the use of a long route through the box.Remember that the distants are/were worked by a separate lever in the box, the 'R' buttons on the distants replicate the ability to maintain the distant at caution at any time. In reality, you'd actually have to replace the distant before replacing the stop signals. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Hap |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2022 at 04:04 #147586 | |
Giantray
347 posts |
No one has asked why does the Signaller need to know whether replacing a signal to danger is relied upon or not. If an Auto Signal is replaced by an "E" button, the Signal can be used in an emergency to stop trains as in its more than likely to have returned to Danger by operation of the "E" button and the Signaller can follow up with an Emergency Call to the train(s) concerned to ensure they have stopped. However because the Signal is not lamp proven by operation of the button, there is a chance it may not have replaced to Danger. So a Signaller cannot use an Auto Signal with an "E" Button to protect Engineer's Possessions or Line Blockages only ones relied upon with a "R" button. However, a Signaller can use an Auto Signal with an "E" button to protect an Engineer's Possessions or Line Blockages if someone goes out to the signal and replaces it using a "Signal Post Replacement Switch"(SPRS) and visually sees the Signal change from proceed to Danger. An SPRS is normally found on the Signal Post concerned. However, in some areas, e.g. London Bridge ASC, the SPRS are found on location cabinets near to the signal concerned (although those at Kidbrooke were found on the opposite line some distance away behind the station and took the unknowning ages to find).
Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amateur wannabees! Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2022 at 05:21 #147587 | |
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TUT
534 posts |
Steamer in post 147583 said:9pN1SEAp in post 147582 said:Indeed, however sometimes the distant is not worked by a separate lever, as at Wem. Here still an emergency replacement switch is generally provided, which you can see in this picture:In Shrewsbury there are R buttons on some of the distants e.g. NH1, HT31 but most of the time the crossings prevent the use of a long route through the box.Remember that the distants are/were worked by a separate lever in the box, the 'R' buttons on the distants replicate the ability to maintain the distant at caution at any time. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43709405@N07/10484134943/ That obviously allows you to comply with the requirement to maintain the distant signal at caution in the affected section during a block failure. I gather it's also a requirement for the distant signal to be able to be placed to and maintained at caution if there's a level crossing, although I can't think right now why you would want to replace the distant individually and not the protecting signal. Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 16/08/2022 at 10:14 #147588 | |
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bill_gensheet
1416 posts |
TUT in post 147587 said:[quote=Steamer;post=147583][quote=9pN1SEAp;post=147582]In ye olden days level crossings did not always have protecting signals. Hence red board and red light aligned to the rails on top, the gate WAS the signal. I'd doubt any remain - so will duly be corrected below ! Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 03/09/2022 at 13:31 #147815 | |
Izzy
44 posts |
Just to throw another spanner in the works - on older panels where spares are getting harder and harder to come by, it is not unknown for the technician to replace a faulty knackered button with whatever he can get his hands on! This may or may not be known from persoanl experience!!!!.
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| R buttons Query 03/09/2022 at 18:51 #147821 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2084 posts |
Officially what would be banned under SMTH
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| R buttons Query 03/09/2022 at 20:52 #147825 | |
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Izzy
44 posts |
Officially, yes. You are welcome to sign the entire panel out of use if you can't find the correct spare if you like - you might find a bit of management resistance if you do though :) Many older panels have used (and still use to my knowledge) buttons with the wrong symbol on them if you can find a working spare with the wrong symbol on it. I have never heard a signalman complain that the open arrow on his entrance button is wrong or the closed arrow on his exit only is annoying him, especially when he has a service to run, lol. In a perfect world, this wouldn't happen, but on 40 year-old plus equipment, you often don't have the luxury of working spares, that are exactly what you need. I am looking forward to when they can't get the old microchips for lineside modules anymore, and have to source replacements. Last edited: 03/09/2022 at 21:04 by Izzy Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 03/09/2022 at 21:56 #147826 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts
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Somebody told me the cost of a new NX button some time ago but I forget exactly. Something in the many hundreds of pounds for a single button - and that's if the button manufacturer even exists these days! Certainly in all our foraging missions around signal boxes over the years, many, many buttons were "wrong" everywhere. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| R buttons Query 07/09/2022 at 12:32 #147863 | |
Mikehax
32 posts |
Giantray in post 147586 said:No one has asked why does the Signaller need to know whether replacing a signal to danger is relied upon or not. If an Auto Signal is replaced by an "E" button, the Signal can be used in an emergency to stop trains as in its more than likely to have returned to Danger by operation of the "E" button and the Signaller can follow up with an Emergency Call to the train(s) concerned to ensure they have stopped. However because the Signal is not lamp proven by operation of the button, there is a chance it may not have replaced to Danger. So a Signaller cannot use an Auto Signal with an "E" Button to protect Engineer's Possessions or Line Blockages only ones relied upon with a "R" button. However, a Signaller can use an Auto Signal with an "E" button to protect an Engineer's Possessions or Line Blockages if someone goes out to the signal and replaces it using a "Signal Post Replacement Switch"(SPRS) and visually sees the Signal change from proceed to Danger. An SPRS is normally found on the Signal Post concerned. However, in some areas, e.g. London Bridge ASC, the SPRS are found on location cabinets near to the signal concerned (although those at Kidbrooke were found on the opposite line some distance away behind the station and took the unknowning ages to find).The only time a signaller can use a replacement switch to protect and Engineer's Possession or a Line Blockage is when it is stated in the Signal Box Special Instructions (SBSI) that the replacement switch can be relied upon. I believe that the original plan was to indicate this on the panel by using switches with R (Reliable) on them rather than E (Emergency), however, due to lack of available spares R & E buttons were/are often interchanged, thus the requirement for the SBSI entry. Log in to reply |