Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

On the GSM-R there is a function which shows the list of trains and they select who they want to call and send a message saying call signaller. They never call them its a message that gets sent out to the drivers GSM-R

bugsy in post 153727 said:

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

Short answer - it depends.

JamesN in post 153728 said:

bugsy in post 153727 said:

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

Short answer - it depends.

What's the long answer??

bugsy in post 153731 said:

JamesN in post 153728 said:

bugsy in post 153727 said:

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

Short answer - it depends.

What's the long answer??

Well in fairness it is mainly given above.

Pre GSM-R you would really have had to wait for the driver to ring from the Signal Post Telephone. It is possible to ring an SPT from the box but I dunno how likely it is that it would have been heard.

If you didn't have an SPT in a mechanical area and you needed to authorise a driver to pass signals at danger beyond a signal box you'd have to stop the driver at the box with a red handsignal and give the instructions out of the window.

With GSM-R you can send a 'contact signaller' message and the driver will ring you usually when they're at a stand but some of them will ring you while still moving, that is up to the driver. You can also just wait for the call, there's no rule saying you must send a contact signaller message but you'd be well advised to otherwise you could have a long wait for a call. The rules say that a driver should contact you as soon as possible when brought to a stand at a red signal, or after two minutes if it is readily apparent why the train is being held, unless signs at the signal or the sectional appendix defines some other minimum waiting time. However I would say that it's quite rare for that to be done these days as, I suppose, drivers expect a 'contact signaller' message from you if you need to talk to them. I'm sure it might be different if a train is detained in an unusual place, but if a train is stopped at a signal where it's common to be held they won't necessarily be on the phone immediately or even within 2 minutes. What they can also do instead is send a standing at signal message on the GSM-R instead of ringing and the signaller can respond to that with a 'wait' message or they can ring the driver in response to that.

As has been said if you can see the train is at a stand you can absolutely ring the train yourself. I find it can be a lot quicker that way. The rules to signallers say you must not use the train radio to speak to the driver unless you are sure the train is at a standstill, except in an emergency. The rules to drivers give them a bit more flexibility in deciding whether it is appropriate to use the train radio while the train is moving.

Then you have the Train Crew side of things, where we can press the SG button on the GSM-r, to which to most common reply back on the display is "wait".

Also now taken on board (though kind of partly knew / suspected) the extent to which it is advised that a train should be at a stand when contacting the driver. This has never been properly educated to us on LUL so I will pass this on to my colleagues, as I have to say it is common for us to contact Chiltern trains as we do our own trains, mostly regardless of whether they are moving or not. There will be occasions during more serious incidents where this is considered, but other less serious incidents may not have this consideration.

39 Train radio equipment

39.1 Using the train radio safely

Except in an emergency, you must only use the train radio when a train is moving if one of the following applies.
• You need to pass a message relating to the immediate movement of the train and it is necessary to do so before your next stopping point.
• You are responding to a 'contact signaller' or a 'contact train operator's control' message.
• You are allowed to elsewhere in the Rule Book.

Before you use the train radio when a train is moving, you must decide whether it is necessary and whether it can be done safely, taking into consideration whether:
• your train is running under cautionary signal aspects or you can see cautionary signal aspects ahead
• your train is approaching a location where it is necessary to reduce speed or you are running over a speed restriction
• you have reduced the speed of your train sufficiently before making the call to keep full control of the train throughout the call.

If a conversation cannot be completed quickly, you must end the call or stop the train.

If you need clarification, advice or information from a signaller, you must bring the train to a standstill before making a call.

If you receive a text message, you must only read that message when it is safe to do so.

Module TW1: Preparation and movement of trains

Except in an emergency, you must not use the train radio to speak to the driver unless you are sure that the train concerned is at a standstill.

You can use the train radio at any time to send a 'contact signaller' message to get the driver to call you.

I think it depends on TOC policy - at Northern we don't use GSM-R on the move but I don't think Avanti, for example, have the same restriction so can make and receive calls if a situation requires.

Also it is 'at danger' and not 'stop' which is the language SimSig chooses to use in the phone call menus for some reason.

TUT in post 153732 said:

bugsy in post 153731 said:

JamesN in post 153728 said:

bugsy in post 153727 said:

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

Short answer - it depends.

What's the long answer??

Well in fairness it is mainly given above.

Pre GSM-R you would really have had to wait for the driver to ring from the Signal Post Telephone. It is possible to ring an SPT from the box but I dunno how likely it is that it would have been heard.

If you didn't have an SPT in a mechanical area and you needed to authorise a driver to pass signals at danger beyond a signal box you'd have to stop the driver at the box with a red handsignal and give the instructions out of the window.

With GSM-R you can send a 'contact signaller' message and the driver will ring you usually when they're at a stand but some of them will ring you while still moving, that is up to the driver. You can also just wait for the call, there's no rule saying you must send a contact signaller message but you'd be well advised to otherwise you could have a long wait for a call. The rules say that a driver should contact you as soon as possible when brought to a stand at a red signal, or after two minutes if it is readily apparent why the train is being held, unless signs at the signal or the sectional appendix defines some other minimum waiting time. However I would say that it's quite rare for that to be done these days as, I suppose, drivers expect a 'contact signaller' message from you if you need to talk to them. I'm sure it might be different if a train is detained in an unusual place, but if a train is stopped at a signal where it's common to be held they won't necessarily be on the phone immediately or even within 2 minutes. What they can also do instead is send a standing at signal message on the GSM-R instead of ringing and the signaller can respond to that with a 'wait' message or they can ring the driver in response to that.

As has been said if you can see the train is at a stand you can absolutely ring the train yourself. I find it can be a lot quicker that way. The rules to signallers say you must not use the train radio to speak to the driver unless you are sure the train is at a standstill, except in an emergency. The rules to drivers give them a bit more flexibility in deciding whether it is appropriate to use the train radio while the train is moving.

Then you have the Train Crew side of things, where we can press the SG button on the GSM-r, to which to most common reply back on the display is "wait".

There are only two available responses for the signaller to choose from - ‘Wait’ and ‘Contact Signaller’. In the early days of the original Yoker GSM-R trial it was possible to compose a text message on the signaller’s terminal and send it to one or more cab mobiles but this functionality was rapidly withdrawn after the signallers started broadcasting football results. It is still possible to send texts between signallers terminals, though very few I’ve spoken to realised this.

bugsy in post 153731 said:

JamesN in post 153728 said:

bugsy in post 153727 said:

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

Short answer - it depends.

What's the long answer??

Well in fairness it is mainly given above.

Pre GSM-R you would really have had to wait for the driver to ring from the Signal Post Telephone. It is possible to ring an SPT from the box but I dunno how likely it is that it would have been heard.

If you didn't have an SPT in a mechanical area and you needed to authorise a driver to pass signals at danger beyond a signal box you'd have to stop the driver at the box with a red handsignal and give the instructions out of the window.

<snip>

I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.
But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call.

So what actually happens in real life?

What (if I may ask) are the material differences between a PoSA and a subsidiary signal? I realise they are a different class of route but how does a driver's behaviour when driving under them materially differ enough to warrant a different aspect?

What (if I may ask) are the material differences between a PoSA and a subsidiary signal? I realise they are a different class of route but how does a driver's behaviour when driving under them materially differ enough to warrant a different aspect?

There are only two available responses for the signaller to choose from - ‘Wait’ and ‘Contact Signaller’. In the early days of the original Yoker GSM-R trial it was possible to compose a text message on the signaller’s terminal and send it to one or more cab mobiles but this functionality was rapidly withdrawn after the signallers started broadcasting football results. It is still possible to send texts between signallers terminals, though very few I’ve spoken to realised this.

The way they are used. A Subsidary/Call-on Position light Signal permits the Signaller to signal a train onto an occupied line, the Driver will proceed as far as the line is clear. Clive is part right regarding sendin a train onto occupied platform, except, the driver will expect the platform to have a trains somewhere along it, not necessarilly at the far end, could be anywhere along the platform.

Thank you. I see how it is useful for the driver to know they are not being sent into a siding. I do not quite understand how it is useful to the driver to know that permissive working is not permitted, though—if they are proceeding on sight they need to stop short of any obstacles regardless, no?

Also, the guy doing the course insisted on pronouncing "Yoker" as "Yorker". Is that the correct pronunciation, not being a local and all that. It's been bugging me for the last 12 years ...

lazzer in post 153782 said:

Also, the guy doing the course insisted on pronouncing "Yoker" as "Yorker". Is that the correct pronunciation, not being a local and all that. It's been bugging me for the last 12 years ...

It’s pronounced Yolk- (as in the yellow bit in the middle of an egg) -er.

You can hear a local say it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YfRbNipdOg&t=24s

If you’re going to watch the whole sketch be aware there’ a bit of naughty language.