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Can't Pause to confirm signal number

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Exeter > Can't Pause to confirm signal number

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Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:25 #26236
maxand
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1637 posts 		After playing Bristol, I've moved to Exeter 2.227, and the first thing to hit me was that now when I Pause the sim to confirm a signal number, right-clicking the signal does not bring up the context menu (with the number on it), which is frustrating, not to mention inconsistent with my experience in playing other sims such as Bristol and Southampton.

It means I have to keep the signal diagram handy to look it up, but when you think about it, no signal map offers actual confirmation of signal number in the way that right-clicking in the View Window does. Newcomers to Exeter get the double whammy; this inconvenience comes at the worst possible time, when they are unfamiliar with the layout and overloaded with trains waiting at reds at signals whose numbers they can't confirm. Trainee signallers wouldn't expect to be placed in this situation, so neither should we.

I've read other threads about pausing SimSig, notably here.

I also read somewhere else that disabling all sim functions when paused is being phased out, but let's not go to the opposite extreme. In Bristol, as I recall, I could execute the first step of most functions (e.g., set one route), except for telephone calls, which I could deal with one after the other as if the sim hadn't been paused at all. This is taking things to the opposite, unreal extreme. Why should I be able to set a route while paused?

By allowing only the first step to be taken, it confuses the user. Indeed, sometimes I played on, forgetting I had paused the sim, and found myself wondering why trains didn't move!

This raises the general issue of what one should and shouldn't be able to do in SimSig when it is paused. IMO the only reasons one should need to Pause a sim are when one needs to take a break from it, and to confirm a signal number (actually, a poor compensation for the lack of a simple function to turn signal numbers on/off, as discussed in an earlier thread). Even this is denied us in Exeter and, along with the need to keep jumping from one end of the sim to the other all the time just to operate different types of manual level crossings, makes this sim a lot more difficult than it appears at first glance.

I think it's also reasonable for us to be able to peruse the Train List, but not to be able to signal the driver, etc.

Also it's more courteous to have a popup appear explaining to the user that such-and-such an action cannot be allowed while the sim is paused, rather than leave him sitting there wondering why nothing happened when he instituted it!

As an aside, the manual states:

Quote:
Hotkeys:
Numbers 1 to 9
B - Bridgewater
E - Exeter St Davids
N - Newton Abbot
P - Paignton
T - Taunton
Not only don't the letter hotkeys work, but it should have been obvious to the sim creator that P couldn't be used as it's also the Pause key.

I hope that the next upgrade to Exeter enables us to display signal numbers when the sim is paused, but forbids us doing anything else we would do in real life such as answering telephone calls.
Last edited: 27/12/2011 at 13:31 by maxand
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:28 #26237
jc92
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3687 posts
Online 		you can always use the F11 menu when paused to check signal numbers
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:48 #26239
Stephen Fulcher
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2080 posts 		You cannot do anything to a new-code sim when the sim is paused.

The reason for this is that a real-life Signalman cannot pause time to enable him to signal trains, and a majority of users indicated to Geoff and Clive that they thought SimSig should be the same.

JC92 has the best suggestion, use the F11 Incident Panel, under the signals tab, click in the picture of a mouse and then click on whichever signal you want to know the number of, which will then be selected in the list.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:50 #26241
maxand
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1637 posts 		Thanks for the suggestion jc92, but lamp proving doesn't work in Exeter when the sim is paused.
Last edited: 27/12/2011 at 13:51 by maxand
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:50 #26242
jc92
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3687 posts
Online 		" said:
You cannot do anything to a new-code sim when the sim is paused.

The reason for this is that a real-life Signalman cannot pause time to enable him to signal trains, and a majority of users indicated to Geoff and Clive that they thought SimSig should be the same.
appears you can set and cancel routes on saltley, as well as check signal numbers, although you cannot make calls
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:52 #26244
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts 		" said:

As an aside, the manual states:

Quote:
Hotkeys:
Numbers 1 to 9
B - Bridgewater
E - Exeter St Davids
N - Newton Abbot
P - Paignton
T - Taunton
Not only don't the letter hotkeys work, but it should have been obvious to the sim creator that P couldn't be used as it's also the Pause key.
I think it should be obvious where you've gone wrong using the Hot Keys.

Peter

As it's Christmas I'll give you a clue
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 27/12/2011 at 13:54 by Peter Bennet
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 13:59 #26245
maxand
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1637 posts 		Saltley is a bit big for me and having seen all the bugs reported since its release, I think I might sit this one out till the shakedown is completed.

Anyway, I think I remember reading somewhere that Geoff was going to reverse the decision to stop all functions during Pause.

Peter Bennet wrote:
Quote:
I think it should be obvious where you've gone wrong using the Hot Keys.

The Glossary entry Hot Keys states:

Quote:
These are found on Scrolly sims and are keys that will centre the simulation view at a preset location.

All numbers and all letters (UPPERCASE) can be used.

e.g. Key 'D' will centre the Swindon A and B Sim on Didcot Station.

As a rule numbers will sequentially step from left to right across the Sim in roughly equal amounts

The keys used will vary from Sim to Sim and a full list will be given in the Sim manual.
So where did I go wrong? I was just following directions.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 14:01 #26247
jc92
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3687 posts
Online 		capital letters?
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 14:02 #26249
Stephen Fulcher
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2080 posts 		I would imagine, although have not tried it, that the UPPERCASE bit being in capitals is significant.

Personally, I do not tend to use hotkeys anyway since the scrolly sims have come out.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 14:07 #26252
maxand
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1637 posts 		Hah! Found the problem.

Pressing Shift+Letter Key works. However, this is not the same as UPPERCASE. Upper Case is when you press the Caps Lock Key.

It's not obvious where I went wrong, it's obvious that whoever wrote the glossary entry wasn't thinking clearly enough.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 14:28 #26256
ralphjwchadkirk
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275 posts 		" said:
Hah! Found the problem.

Pressing Shift+Letter Key works. However, this is not the same as UPPERCASE. Upper Case is when you press the Caps Lock Key.

It's not obvious where I went wrong, it's obvious that whoever wrote the glossary entry wasn't thinking clearly enough.

Shift + Letter key is a standard way of producing an uppercase character.

Perhaps if you stopped being quite so accusatory and rude then people would be more willing to spend time explaining things to you.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 14:41 #26260
Peter Bennet
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5402 posts 		up·per·case
   /ˈʌpərˈkeɪs/ Show Spelled [uhp-er-keys] Show IPA adjective, verb, -cased, -cas·ing, noun
adjective
1.
(of an alphabetical character) capital.
2.
Printing . pertaining to or belonging in the upper case.
verb (used with object)
3.
to print or write with an uppercase letter.

Peter
I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 15:00 #26264
hayleysmith
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14 posts 		Uppercase comes from moveable type printing presses when capital letters were above non-capital letters in the press, ie, they were in the 'upper case'. Thus any capital letter is said to be uppercase and non-capitals are lowercase. As for Upper Case being when you press Caps Lock Key, that's complete and utter nonsense.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 16:01 #26266
Steamer
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3985 posts
Online 		" said:
Also it's more courteous to have a popup appear explaining to the user that such-and-such an action cannot be allowed while the sim is paused, rather than leave him sitting there wondering why nothing happened when he instituted it!

Although I haven't played the new version of Exeter, all other Sims with this feature do flash a popup "Simulation is paused" when I try to set a route. Have a fiddle with your F3 options to get it to appear.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 16:05 #26267
delticfan
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476 posts 		Hi all, I'm playing the latest version of Exeter at the moment and it pauses ok when I hit the 'P'.
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 23:31 #26289
maxand
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1637 posts 		ralphjwchadkirk:
Quote:
Shift + Letter key is a standard way of producing an uppercase character.

Perhaps if you stopped being quite so accusatory and rude then people would be more willing to spend time explaining things to you.

I made my earlier posts in good faith, describing things exactly as they appeared to me, and probably would to any other newcomer to Exeter. I do my best to make things work for me before posting. The only thing I really care about is that things behave as expected, and are accurately documented if they don't.

Since each sim is its own little world and doesn't have to conform that much to any other sim, I've lowered my expectations of conformity between them with every new one I try. Still, it's nice to see some common ground, and disappointing when one's faith that rules that would seem to apply across all sims is suddenly shaken.

Let's look again at what caused the conflict.

1) The Exeter manual states that hotkeys are "Numbers 1 to 9, B - Bridgewater, E - Exeter St Davids...". If this was one's first encounter with letter hotkeys, one would naturally assume that pressing B, E, etc. would work as promised. As any technical writer knows, in the absence of other information, people follow advice literally.

2) The manual page contains a link to the Hot keys page in the glossary, which states
Quote:
All numbers and all letters (UPPERCASE) can be used.

e.g. Key 'D' will centre the Swindon A and B Sim on Didcot Station.

I am sure many SimSig users play with their Caps Lock on, unaware that in the Interpose window and in Sticky Notes, lower case is automatically converted to upper. Reading the above instruction, one naturally thinks "If I press the D key, the sim will center on Didcot Station" (of course, nothing happens). It is standard practice to display key names on the keyboard in upper case, and standard practice in technical writing to use upper case when referring to keys by their names, to make them stand out, unless coding practices dictate otherwise. Furthermore, numbers occupy the "lower case" parts of their assigned keys.

So naturally, when smart alecs make unhelpful remarks such as "I think it should be obvious where you've gone wrong using the Hot Keys" and "As it's Christmas I'll give you a clue" it strains my charity in the festive season.

Okay, here's how it should have been worded:

Manual:
Quote:
Hotkeys are "Numbers 1 to 9, Shift+B - Bridgewater, Shift+E - Exeter St Davids...", etc.

for those who can't see why they should click the "hotkey" link above this list.

Glossary:
Quote:
Location hot keys

When pressed, they centre the simulation view at a preset location. They occur only in Scrolly sims (link).

Numbers 0-9 and Shift+[A-Z] can be used as location hotkeys. The actual numbers and letters available in a particular sim should be listed in its manual. For example, in the Swindon A and B sim, pressing Shift+D centres the sim on Didcot Station.

As a rule, numbers will step sequentially from left to right across the Sim in roughly equal amounts.

Note that setting Caps Lock to On is irrelevant here.

Note also that there are general hotkeys such as P for Pause that apply to all sims. See Shortcut Keys (link)

I have edited the Glossary and Exeter manual to remove confusion, and recommend updating other manuals where hotkeys are used.
Last edited: 28/12/2011 at 00:16 by maxand
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 27/12/2011 at 23:54 #26290
postal
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5265 posts 		" said:
So naturally, when smart alecs make unhelpful remarks such as "I think it should be obvious where you've gone wrong using the Hot Keys" and "As it's Christmas I'll give you a clue" it strains my charity in the festive season.
Please stop being so confrontational when things don't suit the Maxand view of the world and I am sure you will see far fewer postings which your view sees as "smart alec" postings.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 00:18 #26291
BarryM
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2158 posts 		Good lord Max, What is this full page essay all about?

You run the sims using a mouse. Only 3 keys are programed as hotkeys , "A, I, and P". Really only "P" is needed. To access the layouts you use the "overview". In older sims you use the tab bar.

If you play with any of the current game sims, all you need is a mouse or similar.

Simsig is for persons who interested and know about BR railway signalling procedures and practices. You learn by trial and error.

I think you had better go back to Train Dispatcher. Did you give them heaps on their forum.

Barry
An Aussie Battler.
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 00:27 #26293
BarryM
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2158 posts 		To access the signals in Exeter, run it in "slow" mode! You might learn something. It will not upset your moves.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 01:34 #26295
maxand
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1637 posts 		Quote:
Simsig is for persons who interested and know about BR railway signalling procedures and practices. You learn by trial and error.

That's a bit unfair, considering that SimSig documentation is so inaccurate (putting it politely) in places that often the only way to learn IS by trial and error. And who said I wasn't interested in BR railway signalling procedures and practices?

OK, since we are discussing hotkeys and documentation, you say
Quote:
Only 3 keys are programed as hotkeys , "A, I, and P". Really only "P" is needed.

If you check out the Shortcut keys page in the Wiki you will find that N, F, S and Numeric Keypad +/- are also listed as hotkeys.

S doesn't work in any sims I've played (another example of misleading documentation?) - it should have been Ctrl+S, I think.

N and +/- to set sim speed are fine in theory, but hopeless to use in practice since:
- they don't work when the Options window (F3) is enabled;.
- there is no popup window to tell you what speed you have set the sim to after pressing the +/- keys, nor to confirm that the sim is indeed running at normal (1:1) speed after you pressed the N key;
- the Num Pad minus (-) key can't reduce the speed below 1:1, i.e., slow.

You might as well forget about these keys, with the possible exception of N, and use Options > General each time you want to adjust sim speed. At least you can see what your settings are, and there is a clickable button for Normal Speed.

But can't you see the bad design here? An Options window is for Options and should not be used for anything else. Options are changes one generally makes infrequently. Worse, the Options window is (actually, needs to be) modal; in other words, opening it interrupts the flow of play. (These are not just my own ideas.) It's a darn nuisance not only to have to open it but then to choose the correct tab (it remembers the last one set) simply to adjust the speed

No doubt that's why sim speed shortcut keys such as F, N, +, - were introduced, so speed changes could be done in-game. But the lack of feedback in their implementation is so discouraging, I find them virtually useless, except for the F key.

Quote:
I think you had better go back to Train Dispatcher. Did you give them heaps on their forum

They used to have a forum, but that was before I began playing it. Yeah well, I suggest that if you have never tried their sim you should play with it a bit, then you might discover some nice features that could be applied to SimSig too.

They make more use of popup message boxes than SimSig does to confirm user actions that have taken place. However, in neither SimSig nor Train Dispatcher do these boxes close spontaneously after a preset time; the user needs to click OK, which can become rather annoying after a while. Perhaps this requires just a bit more effort on the part of the programmer.

I appreciate your suggestion to run SimSig slow (but not to pause it), when needing to confirm a signal number, but that's not really a practical solution; I'd be so busy adjusting speed, I wouldn't have time to enjoy the game. No, the sim needs to be paused, even if it means having to drag the signal map out from under a stack of windows.

Didn't know about the A key till you mentioned it. Now there's a handy shortcut.
Last edited: 28/12/2011 at 01:43 by maxand
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 01:42 #26296
postal
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5265 posts 		" said:
Perhaps this requires just a bit more effort on the part of the programmer.
Please stop being so confrontational when things don't suit the Maxand view of the world and I am sure you will see far fewer postings which your view sees as "smart alec" postings.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 01:49 #26297
maxand
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1637 posts 		I don't know why you just repeated your earlier post but I am talking as one who has been involved with program interface design and documentation in the past. Just as the practices of British Rail took many years to develop, so the principles of good program interface design took a while to be established but now stand the test of time.

(added) In an earlier post I said:
Quote:
An Options window is for Options and should not be used for anything else
To be fair, I should point out that there are many other applications around in which the temptation to overload the Options window to several levels, then force users to open it to make quick changes, has proved irresistible.
Last edited: 28/12/2011 at 01:54 by maxand
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 01:56 #26298
postal
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5265 posts 		" said:
" said:
Perhaps this requires just a bit more effort on the part of the programmer.
Please stop being so confrontational when things don't suit the Maxand view of the world and I am sure you will see far fewer postings which your view sees as "smart alec" postings.
I repeated my earlier post because you have clearly not understood that comments like "Perhaps this requires just a bit more effort on the part of the programmer" carry the implication that the programmer is incapable of putting in the work that Maxand would to produce a product that passes the Maxand quality test. To my mind, that is confrontational. Maybe the programmer didn't put in "just a bit more effort" because that is the way he/she wanted to do it. Clearly you see yourself as more capable than the writers/developers/testers of the SimSig product, so maybe you should start thinking that SimSig is below your level of competence and look to trying something else that suits your enhanced powers.

(Mods - please delete and red-card me if this falls outside the Code of Conduct).
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 28/12/2011 at 02:02 by postal
Reason: Clarification
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 02:02 #26299
BarryM
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2158 posts 		This topic need to be moved else where.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: Can't Pause to confirm signal number 28/12/2011 at 02:43 #26302
BarryM
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2158 posts 		" said:
Quote:
Simsig is for persons who interested and know about BR railway signalling procedures and practices. You learn by trial and error.

That's a bit unfair, considering that SimSig documentation is so inaccurate (putting it politely) in places that often the only way to learn IS by trial and error. And who said I wasn't interested in BR railway signalling procedures and practices? .
I did not need documentation in 2004. Learned the intricacies from the Forum. If you were really interest, you would not be asking all these questions.

Quote:
OK, since we are discussing hotkeys and documentation, you say
Quote:
Only 3 keys are programed as hotkeys , "A, I, and P". Really only "P" is needed.

If you check out the Shortcut keys page in the Wiki you will find that N, F, S and Numeric Keypad +/- are also listed as hotkeys..

The keys I quoted are the only keys in use in the latest sim EUSTON.

Quote:
You might as well forget about these keys, with the possible exception of N, and use Options > General each time you want to adjust sim speed. At least you can see what your settings are, and there is a clickable button for Normal Speed..

F3 to adjust speeds.

Quote:
I think you had better go back to Train Dispatcher. Did you give them heaps on their forum
Quote:
They used to have a forum, but that was before I began playing it. Yeah well, I suggest that if you have never tried their sim you should play with it a bit, then you might discover some nice features that could be applied to SimSig too.
Being playing with it since 1997. Created a PSB sim of Homebush/Strathfield Sydney very similar to Simsig. However I prefer Simsig design.


Quote:
They make more use of popup message boxes than SimSig does to confirm user actions that have taken place. However, in neither SimSig nor Train Dispatcher do these boxes close spontaneously after a preset time; the user needs to click OK, which can become rather annoying after a while. Perhaps this requires just a bit more effort on the part of the programmer.
All saved automatically in Simsig. (F3)

Quote:
appreciate your suggestion to run SimSig slow (but not to pause it), when needing to confirm a signal number, but that's not really a practical solution; I'd be so busy adjusting speed, I wouldn't have time to enjoy the game. No, the sim needs to be paused, even if it means having to drag the signal map out from under a stack of windows.
You must be running the sims greater than 2:1 mode. Detecting signals in normal mode is not going to affect your game one iota.

Pause mode works fine in Euston.

Barry
Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Last edited: 28/12/2011 at 02:49 by BarryM
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