I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St

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This is a really daft question, but at what speed is the sim running (F3, General tab)?

Not a daft question at all. Thanks for asking.

When I began playing it it was at normal speed (till I got on top of it), then I found about 1.5 seemed about right. Mind you, there are a couple of flat spots where nothing much seems to be happening, such as about 5 PM (17:00). This surprised me as I would have expected peak hour (rush hour) at this time. I tried 2x speed but it was a little too fast for comfort. However, in the last hour and a half when traffic slowed down and trains were being put to bed, 2x worked OK for me. By that time, too, I was feeling tired and a bit discouraged by the problems I'd faced earlier, so was only too happy to see the sim end as fast as possible.

I didn't make use of the Simplifier at all, but lots of sticky notes, including platform lengths for each platform, saved time, (as did macros I've mentioned elsewhere).

What's your comfortable playing speed for this sim?

All this replatforming that others say they need to do bothers me greatly in Lime Street. Here we have 9 platforms, presumably packed with passengers whose last wish is to be told that train xxx will be terminating at a different platform than the one they are waiting at. Is it possible to complete this sim without any re-platforming at all? (I'm about to find out by replaying it.)

agilchrist said:

As you seem to be the Wiki guru; might I suggest you add to the documentation that "Players should expect to use some common sense when playing the sims" I think this might cover the lack of documentation you mentioned.

I find that a very condescending statement to make to newcomers. To me, common sense is directly related to one's confidence, based as it is on cumulative experience. One can only apply common sense if one already has a firm grasp of the basics. From then on, it's a matter of experimentation. As an example, I applied plenty of common sense in my Royston tutorial to get a train from A to B, even if I had to break several rules to do it. Rules and common sense do not often go together, at least not until one has acquired considerable experience to know why rules are there.

(added) By the way, for anyone else trying Lime Street for the first time, I notice that the grey arrowheads pointing right at the end of each terminating line have berths associated with them, at which you can interpose new descriptions. As discussed in another thread, this does not apply to the grey arrowhead pointing left at the end of the neck siding.

All this replatforming that others say they need to do bothers me greatly in Lime Street. Here we have 9 platforms, presumably packed with passengers whose last wish is to be told that train xxx will be terminating at a different platform than the one they are waiting at.

I get the impression it is, so this heartening news has convinced me it's worthwhile to go back again and replay the whole standard timetable, this time with a pencil and paper handy in case problems recur. Either way I will post the results here, accurately and honestly. Then other newbies will know what to expect if they haven't tried it before.

" said:

All this replatforming that others say they need to do bothers me greatly in Lime Street. Here we have 9 platforms, presumably packed with passengers whose last wish is to be told that train xxx will be terminating at a different platform than the one they are waiting at.

As the trains are terminating, it doesn't matter 100% which platform it turns up in? I doubt there would be that many people waiting for the arriving train. As said above for departures, the platform is displayed very near departure time, in my experience 10-15 minutes before (but I can only speak really of Kings Cross) when the train is definitely in the platform and ready to go. I should think it's very similar for arrivals.

Upon consultation with numerous people I have changed the thread title to something somewhat more diplomatic.

Upon consultation with numerous people I have changed the thread title to something somewhat more diplomatic.

I wrote:
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agilchrist wrote:
As you seem to be the Wiki guru; might I suggest you add to the documentation that "Players should expect to use some common sense when playing the sims" I think this might cover the lack of documentation you mentioned.

I find that a very condescending statement to make to newcomers. To me, common sense is directly related to one's confidence, based as it is on cumulative experience. One can only apply common sense if one already has a firm grasp of the basics.

It was meant to be condescending, and I dont consider you a newcomer, you have after all spent a considerable time editing the wiki to now claim to not have a "firm grasp of the basics"

Let's try and clear this up. Max, in what areas do you think the manual is lacking? Please bear in mind, unlike Royston, this could be the second or twentieth Sim a user has encountered, so there are some things (like the white arrows you talked about), which won't necessarily be encountered for the first time here, and as such have their own section elsewhere on the Wiki.

This simulation covers the immediate area around Liverpool Lime Street station, as covered by the existing miniature lever frame in the signal box.

...and the neck siding between the two pairs of lines on approach to the station.

NB: Edge Hill station is not included in the simulation Panel Overview

To the left is the fringe to Edge Hill signal box

Permissive Working (available in all platforms and sidings)

If you get it wrong, you could trap something at the buffer-stops end of the platform, or you might end up having to re-platform the entire service to cope with one tiny failure.

Added to which, some manuals are kept offline to prevent editing.

- Clear and adequately detailed explanations of "unusual behaviour", with small screen pics if possible.
- Some overall advice as to what the user should be capable of accomplishing when playing the sim.
- Maybe some hints as to how best to keep it running smoothly.

As the signaler at Liverpool Lime Street, you have to get trains into and out of the station as on time as possible to keep the service running. The regualtion of outbound vs inbound trains is where you have to shine. If you get it wrong, you could trap something at the buffer-stops end of the platform, or you might end up having to re-platform the entire service to cope with one tiny failure. Concentration and accurate timetable reading is the key to success

I can see the label NECK SIDING on the panel, but what is it and what use is it? Does it go underground? After all, the manual talks about "Station Throat Closure" (gasp!)

NB: Edge Hill station is not included in the simulation Panel Overview
I can't see it in the main panel either, so why am I being told this?

To the left is the fringe to Edge Hill signal box
I know what a signal box is, but what's a fringe? Never heard that one before.

Probably intended to make the sim sound exciting challenging, but also forbidding to a newcomer. "One small slip and I might have to restart the whole sim. Does re-platform the entire service mean I might have to move every train to a different platform?" (honest, that's how I first read it).

Known bugs: Again, a small screen pic of each would save having to read each three times.

- No explanation of the unusual objects I alluded to here.

White exit triangles - the link you posted ought to be in the manual itself, since I bet many users wouldn't know their "official" term (official to SimSig), so wouldn't even know where to start looking them up.

- The fact that all the grey exit triangles at the ends of the platforms can be used to interpose new working descriptions, yet the one at the distant end of the neck siding can't. Also explain that simply because they're grey "exit" triangles doesn't mean they're exit points, since trains can't go any further!

Explanation that not all the black sim background is available for creating sticky notes, as discussed here.

Hints and Tips etc.

(added) I now feel Lime Street deserves a place on a short list of sims for the newcomer progressing beyond Royston:
- It still fits comfortably on one page without scrolling;
- It provides good practice for Detaching and Dividing trains; the current standard Royston TT omits these important manoeuvres.

I must admit that before people suggested using the Simplifier, I found these two manoeuvres unnecessary difficult and error-prone, simply because there seemed no quick way to find out which end of a red stripe went in which direction. Thanks to the Simplifier and you guys for incorporating it, this is no longer a problem.

Ermm, it's called a siding that's called 'NECK SIDING? I'm sorry, but it should be clear that the Neck Siding is just a normal siding.

It emphasises that the simulation extends to Edge Hill exclusive, as opposed to Edge Hill inclusive.

This is where the user should put a little bit of effort in, and search the Wiki for the word 'Fringe'. I did it just then, and the first result was the glossary page. Yes, a direct link might be helpful, but remember that this isn't necesarilly the first time they've seen it.

If you re-platform 1 train, it becomes necessary fairly often to re-platform another, and another, hence 'the whole service'. Other, more optimistic, responses to that statement is 'Right, better not mess this up then' or 'Snaphot every 10 minutes' or even 'Bring it on!' Remember, a small slip in an action game, e.g. being shot, or losing the car race by a whisker, requires a re-start. SimSig is different in that you have an option: Re-start from a save and do it right, or try and get yourself out of a mess (which is possible).

How on earth are you meant to illustrate an overlap dropping just after a train enters, without putting a video in?

Maybe add it to the 'Display types' or 'Sticky Notes' page on the Wiki? Again, not a Lime St. limited occurance.

Something that has struck me with this is that there appear to be two ways to write a manual. One is, take the user through every step, with minimal effort on their part. The other is, give the user the information they need and the tools to find it, and let them use their own wit to work it out. I know the Wiki could be more detailed in places, however what has been referred to as "Jack and Jill SimSig" isn't really what this is about.

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It emphasises that the simulation extends to Edge Hill exclusive, as opposed to Edge Hill inclusive.

Sorry, I still don't understand the distinction.

Well, that's how most manuals here seem to be written, requiring considerable extra research unless one is already fairly experienced. As I suggested before, one solution that should settle this is to leave the manual writing and editing to one person except to point out the occasional error and glaring omission, and to have a separate Hints & Tips page, more condensed than trawling through all the forum posts for that particular sim. That way, anyone who just wants a straight basic manual doesn't have to waste time reading fine detail, and anyone with less experience who would really like to see what tips others have added is also able to pick and choose from them without disturbing the neat layout of the original manual.

There will always be at least two or three ways that users find best to accomplish the same goal.

I must say it had me fooled. I thought a neck siding was a special type of siding. It certainly doesn't look normal, what with its strange wide to gauge points (that should be explained in the manual, too). I'd like to see an explicit description, if not on the main manual page, then on a separate Hints and Tips page for raw newbies who feel flummoxed by it.

Maybe one difference between an experienced player like you and a relative beginner like me is that once one encounters more than one sim using the same term, one becomes a little more blasé. It didn't occur to me that this might be in the Glossary, but you're right.

That seems to call for a separate entry in a linked Hints & Tips page on how to cope with disaster. In that case, a few words on how to reverse blocking trains out, edit timetables, etc., might be opportune. Lime Street is a bit like a partially blocked coronary artery.

For all their popularity, IMO videos seem to be too jerky in mouse cursor movement and never as sharp as a well chosen, well cropped series of screen captures with reference arrows, etc., accompanied by step-by-step description.

I suppose that the 'real world' signallers among us will be used to these quiet spells as there are probably other things to do whilst waiting for traffic. Would be interested in their comments on this.

You mention a hints and tips page. Could I suggest that, if you want to create one, you make it a global page, as opposed to Lime St. specific? Lots of hints that apply to Lime St. apply to other simulations, and it would save duplicating masses of information. The only things I'd watch out for are trying to cover every eventuality, which as I've said above, is very difficult, and re-writing information that appears elsewhere.

all beginner mode means is that some functions of the sim - eg. interposing a description at a entrance siding, is done for the user, rather than having to it yourself.

Beginner – This option allows the simulation to run in easy mode, and everything should run perfectly.