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| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 13/02/2012 at 14:23 #29362 | |
northroad
872 posts |
Quote:If it wasn't for the timetable faults, Lime Street would be a great next step from Royston.Maxand, I really doubt that comments about timetable faults encourages people to actually try and write one. As an absolute beginner of writing a timetable I am currently trying to put together a timetable for Bristol 1975. Set at the time when the track was being prepared for HST's and as a consequence Wootton Bassett to Westerleigh Junction was closed I thought it might be something different. Added to that the track layout is something different to what is represented on the Sim i.e.it had both a relief and main from Filton West Junction to Stapleton Road amongst other differences. But undeterred and up for the challenge of making it work I have continued. It is still not complete after quite a few months and many long hours of going back and making changes. I am sure many others have been in the same situation and this sort of disection of what may be faults that can be worked round whilst running it come across rather harsh and make me wonder if it is worth continuing as before I know it, then it might be mine that you have a go at next. I know some of your comments contirbute many worthwhile ponderings and updates but please think how some of your comments come across to the poor person who tried his level best to share his mammoth undertaking and give us some enjoyment. When you get round to doing one yourself try looking at the Working Timetables that are being used and see how many mistakes you come across. They have been proof read before publication and many have quite a few supplements to support them and correct the mistakes still contained within. If the big boys who do it for a living cannot get it right...... Geoff Last edited: 13/02/2012 at 14:27 by northroad Log in to reply The following users said thank you: AndyG, BarryM, Meld, GoochyB |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 13/02/2012 at 14:28 #29364 | |
postal
5264 posts |
" said:If it wasn't for the timetable faults, Lime Street would be a great next step from Royston.It is probably only a question of the use of language, but it may be that there are no faults in the TT in the sense that the TT is an accurate transcription of the base data used by the TT writers. It is not unknown for WTTs and Simplifiers/Dockers/As + Ds to contain errors which may have been transcribed into the SimSig TT as a deliberate matter of policy by the TT writers in order that the SimSig signaller has to face the same problems as his/her real life counterpart. If that is the case, then no doubt the testers would have picked up the problems and would have been advised that the discrepancies were a known issue and would not be changed. While accepting that it is impossible to run the TT without operator input, without knowledge of the base data and policy decisions it is perhaps a little dangerous to imply errors on the part of those writing and testing the SimSig TTs. I'm sure that was not the intention of the posting, but it would be easy for a TT writer or tester to read it that way and then have to launch into a half-page of self-justification because he/she feels unfairly treated. Edit: Apologies for some duplication; northroad was posting while I was typing! “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 13/02/2012 at 14:29 by postal Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 13/02/2012 at 21:03 #29398 | |
Lardybiker
771 posts |
" said:
You've read this out of context. The sim and the TT are not a single entity. If they were, no one would be able to write TT's for any sims and the included TT would be the only one available! Any TT's, including the one the sim comes with, are essentially add-ons. The manual is for the simulation and as such, "Running perfectly" means you don't get point failures, TC failures or signal failures and delays are kept to a minimum. When you ran the sim, did any points, signals or TC's fail? If not, then the manual is spot on. Last edited: 13/02/2012 at 21:07 by Lardybiker Log in to reply The following users said thank you: andyb0607, postal, derbybest, Meld |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 00:58 #29406 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Okay, I see there are several points of view on this one. We all know no one and nothing's perfect. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a beginner or near-beginner for whom Lime Street may be his first sim ever. As I've said in the past, he reads the manual and, knowing no better, takes everything he reads literally. But he's not dumb. @Lardybiker: All the player wants is to know what to expect and how to deal with it. When he starts off in Beginner mode, he doesn't take "everything should run perfectly" to mean "everything in the sim works perfectly, but the timetable may be off." Perfectly means perfectly. If anyone detects problems with the timetable, the person responsible for the TT should be informed and add an amendment, and hopefully a workaround to the manual page, not leave it to the user to dig it out of the forum. Sure it takes more time and effort to fix bugs and test afterwards to make sure things work smoothly. If the TT writer hasn't immediately got time to do this, that's understandable too, but at least notify potential users where they are likely to read it (the manual), and if they have to get down and dirty, tell them what they're allowed to do to fix it, even if it means removing the train. Then they know they're not alone when they encounter the problem. @postal: If errors were actually transcribed into the SimSig TT as a deliberate matter of policy by the TT writers in order that the SimSig signaller has to face the same problems as his/her real life counterpart, then this needs to be explicitly stated in the manual, as well as a bit more detail on how to deal with them. I wouldn't have thought this would happen in Beginner mode, but it's all fair game as long as the player understands this fully. It's not enough just to leave a cryptic hint. @northroad: Geoff, I'm not about to attack your hard work when it finally comes out. You should know me better than that. I've attempted about half a dozen of the easier sims by now and found nothing in their timetabling to jump up and down about. Lime Street in Beginner mode was an exception, and this I now realize was because no one had made clear to me that I was expected to know how to edit timetables and not be afraid to modify working timetables to make things fit. It's a bit like telling a player in some other computer game that he really needs to be able to debug as he goes along. Most computer games don't allow this degree of intimacy, so the average beginner to SimSig would feel quite daring at abandoning a timetable or running to a different one, never mind actually editing one. Again it comes down to inadequate documentation. I've just re-read the Wiki pages on Timetable Editor and sure, it tells you how to use this feature and that feature, but not when to use it. Naturally enough I thought the Timetable Editor was only for use by experienced players in creating extra timetables. Although there are forum posts about editing timetables, no one's come out and said "you really should learn how to edit timetables on the fly in order to make SimSig run more smoothly" (or words to that effect). The Timetable Editor is a pretty formidable piece of software, thanks to the developers, and there are still vast gaps in my knowlege of it. Once one masters its basics, timetable mistakes turn from mountains back into molehills. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 01:33 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 01:32 #29408 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:The Timetable Editor is a pretty formidable piece of software, thanks to the developers, and there are still vast gaps in my knowlege of it. Once one masters its basics, timetable mistakes turn from mountains back into molehills.Maxand It's all getting a little repetitive. How exactly do you intend to gain the knowledge that you admit is in short supply in your front room? If you spent a small proportion of the time that you spend in allowing us to share your thoughts on actually learning how to use the software in front of you, then lots of your perceived mountains would disappear. And for fear of any misunderstandings, "learning how to use" means sitting in front of the keyboard and display and trying things out (including making lots and lots of mistakes) while learning and understanding what the powers and limitations are. It does not mean having everything spoon-fed by way of manual, tutorial or whatever. Until you have put yourself through that pain barrier, I am afraid that you will continue to be frustrated with SimSig and I am also afraid that everyone else who has done the hard yards will be equally frustrated with your self-indulgent complaining. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: derbybest, JamesN, Josie, Noisynoel, BarryM, Javelin395, crompton, Meld, TimTamToe, GoochyB, andyb0607 |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 01:34 #29409 | |
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derbybest
274 posts |
Well said Postal
Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Meld |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 01:52 #29410 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:How exactly do you intend to gain the knowledge that you admit is in short supply in your front room? It's the old chicken-and-egg question, a struggle between perseverance and discouragement. To give you an example, when I first started playing SimSig, it seemed the only way to fix a problem train that couldn't have a route set for it, or which got in the way and blocked other trains, was to Remove it. That, I thought, was the correct approach. Then I learned that it was okay to use non-scheduled platforms. Then I learned how to abandon timetables and run to different ones, and finally to edit timetables. All accomplished the same goal - the train finally vanished from the area. But which procedure is the correct one to use? You're right, the pain barrier is more than many would choose to put up with. It's a common failing of software developers that not nearly enough time is spent on producing readable documentation. This is particularly so with SimSig, where effort is all voluntary and a high proportion of its users are those who already have some professional training, so not as much needs to be explicitly stated. If I can give anything back to SimSig, I would like it to be tutorials and guides that take as little as possible for granted. Quote: If you spent a small proportion of the time that you spend in allowing us to share your thoughts on actually learning how to use the software in front of you, then lots of your perceived mountains would disappear. I don't mind spending time sharing my thoughts here on the forum as I'm willing to bet these are also the unvoiced thoughts of many others. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 01:59 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 03:29 #29412 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
In the real world a signaller would take several MONTHS to learn how to use this software and that's without a manual. The signallers in the new east Kent Signalling Centre at Gillingham have spent AT LEAST 6 months sat infront of the simulator (Manufactured by TRESIM so almost identical to SimSig) learning how to use the signalling ststems by trial and error and learning from theirs and each others mistakes. At no stage have they started ranting and raving that it doesn't do what a normal programmer would do. They are now using the software in a LIVE enviroment and are still making mistakes where they are still constantly learing. SIMSIG is no different... learn bu trial & error and batting ideas about, not by constantly saying this is wrong, that doesn't work. And before you say it, those in the new signalling centre are all beginners too! Not one of them has worked in an IECC, all worked in small lever frame or panel boxes. The timetable that the software uses is the official NR timetable and contains so many flaws you wouldn't belive, but, instead of slagging off the planners, they have learnt to identify those errors and work round them! ps.... if I had a 'remove train' button at work then my job would be so much easier, and 6C71 which is currently sat at Mottingham after being wrong routed, wouldn't be in the process of being set back for several miles at walking pace! Noisynoel Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 03:30 by Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Meld, andyb0607, TimTamToe |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 04:33 #29413 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:...learning how to use the signalling ststems by trial and error and learning from theirs and each others mistakes. Are you suggesting that the recommended way to learn SimSig is by joining multiplayer games? Quote: At no stage have they started ranting and raving that it doesn't do what a normal programmer would do. That's not surprising in view of their likely backgrounds. Besides, they need to toe the line to keep their jobs. I'm sure you're not making this up, though it seems an incredibly inefficient way of learning how to use software, in both time and money. Surely Geoff M must have put out some notes for them to read. Honestly, what you say sounds like the blind leading the blind. Well, if you need some proper manuals, there's always one guy you can ask. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 04:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 07:27 #29414 | |
Peter Bennet
5402 posts |
" said:Okay, I see there are several points of view on this one. We all know no one and nothing's perfect. I'm looking at it through the eyes of a beginner or near-beginner for whom Lime Street may be his first sim ever. As I've said in the past, he reads the manual and, knowing no better, takes everything he reads literally. But he's not dumb.OK lets be clear here, when a Sim runs in "perfect" mode it means, and only ever means, that there are no "events"deliberately programmed into the sim such a delays or failures. It does not mean, and never will mea,n that the Sim itself does not have some sort of unintentional bug lurking. The same applies to any other description of any other scenario option. The manual should be about the Sim and its operation. Any timetable that is created, including the supplied one, is a stand-alone piece of work that should have its own sub-manual. If you start tying to inter-twine a specific timetable and its quirks into the general Sim manual that's a recipe for confusion. I noticed you had done that in your Royston manual and that is wrong- imagine the confusion and frustration someone will experience when trying to run say a 2012 timetable and searching for the (non-existent) goods trains that they need take care with. Peter I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: BarryM |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 10:16 #29420 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
" said:<snip>From the Simsig Home Page: "SimSig brings the signal box to your home PC and with it the enjoyment and frustrations of running today's (and some of yesterday's) railways. How often has your train been delayed because of "signal failure" and you've wondered why trains can't be routed around the problem - or why it is even a problem in the first place? You'll soon see exactly why - with SimSig! SimSig places you in the signaller's seat and lets you control the trains. You will be presented with an environment closely resembling a real signalling control centre, including the screen display and controls. It recreates the signalling as realistically as possible and it is up to you to route the trains to their destination and do your best to keep them on time. You will have to make the same kind of decisions that real signallers do to keep the railway running as smoothly as possible. Sounds easy, doesn't it? Well, it is ... until something goes wrong." " said: @postal:Timetable cock-ups are all part of the Of course this assumes a workable timetable exists. There was a period (luckily it was before my time there) when the timetable for services from Liverpool Street to Enfield, Hertford & Chingford had been rather badly thought out (if I quoted the Area Manager's views on it I'd be banned from the forum for bad language - yes, it was that bad)! But the poor signalmen & controllers just had to do what they could with it, as the service got later & later and Control desperately tried to get trains back into something like their proper paths (in the hope that traincrews wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere when they reached the limits of their driving hours & had to be relieved). That meant Liverpool Street signalmen having to find a way to replatform just about everything "on the fly", with about 3 minutes notice of what was arriving (Bethnal Green was a separate signalbox in those days - and the describers gave very little information compared with the modern 4-digit type, so they were always working partially in the dark anyway). But the fact is, in sim terms, that would be a perfect session! I refer again to the home page - "It recreates the signalling as realistically as possible"; if that's what the lads at Lime Street have to work with, that's what we get as well. Up to us to sort it out as best we can on the day. Just think yourself lucky you'll never find something arriving wrong-described so a full-length express gets signalled into a platform with a train already in it 'cos the bobby thinks it's another DMU! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 10:36 #29421 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
" said:To give you an example, when I first started playing SimSig, it seemed the only way to fix a problem train that couldn't have a route set for it, or which got in the way and blocked other trains, was to Remove it.If that was genuinely your fix rather than a statement made for effect, then it is clear that you certainly started with a mindset that had not engaged with what SimSig is or what it tries to do. If that is still the case (and your postings do nothing to dispel that idea), you will never be able to use SimSig in the way that the developers intend and will only suffer increasing frustrations. Unfortunately, those who have managed to avoid that mindset will have to share your frustrations until you either throw the switch in your head or decide that the whole thing is not worth the effort. You also wrote: Quote: I don't mind spending time sharing my thoughts here on the forum as I'm willing to bet these are also the unvoiced thoughts of many others.In post #4 here you wrote: Quote: You're entitled to your own view, of course, but don't pretend to speak for the many.You can't have it both ways. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Log in to reply The following users said thank you: derbybest, peterb, Steamer, Meld, officer dibble, Sam Tugwell |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 11:53 #29426 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Peter Bennet wrote: Quote: OK lets be clear here, when a Sim runs in "perfect" mode it means, and only ever means, that there are no "events"deliberately programmed into the sim such a delays or failures. It does not mean, and never will mean, that the Sim itself does not have some sort of unintentional bug lurking. The same applies to any other description of any other scenario option. OK, so that suggests to me that scenario options such as random delays and failures are built into the sim itself, not any timetable associated with it. Correct me if I'm wrong here. also Quote: The manual should be about the Sim and its operation. Any timetable that is created, including the supplied one, is a stand-alone piece of work that should have its own sub-manual. If you start tying to inter-twine a specific timetable and its quirks into the general Sim manual that's a recipe for confusion. I noticed you had done that in your Royston manual and that is wrong- imagine the confusion and frustration someone will experience when trying to run say a 2012 timetable and searching for the (non-existent) goods trains that they need take care with. I do state in my Royston tutorial Quote: Assuming you have installed and opened the Royston simulation (v2.5), you will see the splash screen with a photo and some buttons at the bottom. Select New Game, then choose Perfect scenario, with Royston Summer 2003 set as the timetable. However, you've made a good point that it should be spelt out that the tutorial applies only to this particular timetable and no other, and that quirks in any TT should not be taken to mean they are in the sim itself. Separating out the 4 freight trains is a good idea and I will do all this, as well as include activities from the other TT linked to the manual. I also like your idea that the TT supplied with the sim should have its own sub-manual; preferably on its own sub-page. In that way everyone who creates an acceptable TT for a sim should link to it from its own sub-manual page, in addition to providing a brief description within the TT itself. Thanks again Keith Barber for injecting your usual sparkle to liven up this discussion and reminding us again what SimSig is really all about. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 12:09 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 12:40 #29430 | |
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northroad
872 posts |
" said:To give you an example, when I first started playing SimSig, it seemed the only way to fix a problem train that couldn't have a route set for it, or which got in the way and blocked other trains, was to Remove it.Ah you must have been in the box the day my Kings Cross to Leeds had a bird strike on the pantograph and the service got terminated at Peterborough after being pulled there by the Cross thunderbird. Do you realise the chaos you caused.  Geoff Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 13:23 by AndyG Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 13:09 #29431 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Quote:Do you realise the chaos you causedSometimes it's hard to soar like an eagle... Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 13:10 by maxand Log in to reply The following user said thank you: northroad |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 16:28 #29441 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
" said:Maxand, I take offence at this, at NO stage have I or do I "make things up", what I have stated is FACT. If that's the kind of reply your going to come back with then I am not going to waste anymore of my valuable time in replying to any of your posts. Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: officer dibble, Meld, Sam Tugwell, Steamer, northroad, DriverCurran, TimTamToe, andyb0607 |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 16:44 #29442 | |
headshot119
4869 posts |
" said:" said:I just thought I'd correct the post for you Noel, hope you don't mind.Maxand, "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 17:01 #29443 | |
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mfloyd
189 posts |
Life's never perfect!
Ripley, Derbyshire Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 17:15 #29444 | |
lazzer
634 posts |
" said:Life's never perfect! Don't forget - it's hard to soar like an eagle ... Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 17:29 #29445 | |
Steamer
3984 posts |
" said:OK, so that suggests to me that scenario options such as random delays and failures are built into the sim itself, not any timetable associated with it. Correct me if I'm wrong here. All failures are built into the Sim, and are totally independant of any timetable run. maxand said: I also like your idea that the TT supplied with the sim should have its own sub-manual; preferably on its own sub-page. In that way everyone who creates an acceptable TT for a sim should link to it from its own sub-manual page, in addition to providing a brief description within the TT itself. Generally, movements which are abnormal will be included in the timetable description, or included as a text file in the Zip downloaded from the site. maxand said: Should I just delete all of the information I've uploaded to this site, since you can clearly do it far better? I've tried to keep an open mind, and some of your ideas are good, but you need to stop making these downright arrogant statements. I was 'blind' 3 years ago, but I put time and effort in, and I now reckon I have a fairly good grasp of railway signalling. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 17:30 by Steamer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Noisynoel, AndyG, ralphjwchadkirk, officer dibble, derbybest, andyb0607, Meld, stanie, MikeW, northroad |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 22:45 #29471 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Noisynoel, when I said "I'm sure you're not making this up" it should have been pretty obvious to anyone else reading it that I was not implying you weren't telling it as you saw it, now or at any time in the past. It's just a figure of speech. Steamer: Quote: Should I just delete all of the information I've uploaded to this site, since you can clearly do it far better? I wasn't referring to the Wiki but to TreSim. Just because I appeared to offer my services doesn't imply I'm the only one capable of doing it. It still seems incredible that training is carried out as Noisynoel described it. Last edited: 14/02/2012 at 22:47 by maxand Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 23:22 #29472 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
" said:It still seems incredible that training is carried out as Noisynoel described it.I think you misread what he wrote. You can have the best manual and training in the world but it doesn't make you a perfect signaller/user from day 1. You make mistakes, like Noel said. You learn from those mistakes, like Noel said. You watch somebody else stuff it up and think "I hope I don't do that". That is not a reflection of the training or the materials but of the Mark 1 human body which doesn't absorb everything first time around. FWIW, putting my TRESIM hat on for the moment, the trainERs get training on how to use TRESIM. The trainEEs receive their training from the trainERs on how to use the equipment. The trainEEs do not need to learn TRESIM as it is supposed to be a reflection of the real system - often times (including East Kent) they are using the real control equipment, just plugged into TRESIM which simulates the trackside interface rather than plugged in to the real railway. SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 23:32 #29473 | |
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lazzer
634 posts |
A word on railway training practices. The first time EVER I drove a train, I was sat in the seat approaching a station at 50mph with a manager stood behind me saying, "Right - there's the station. You bring it to a stand at the stop board". Helpful instructions included, "a bit more brake" and, "OK, you might want to bring it off a bit now". After a week of messing about between Paddington and Bristol with very little input from him, I was able to drive an HST without killing everyone on board. Doing things by trial and error is just how the railway works. Signalling is no different, so let's not get excited that professional signallers don't have a regimented training regime (I'm friends with a few signallers on our region, and let's just say that the regime is ... "relaxed"). So, if we're going to be realistic about Simsig, the trial and error approach is perfect. I started off six or so years ago with Royston, got bored of it fairly quickly and loaded up Kings Cross. Much better! Several weeks later I'd taught myself everything, because that's how I like to do things - I don't need to be spoonfed every instruction from beginning to end. Having said that, I do always read the manual for each new sim before I play it. Log in to reply The following users said thank you: maxand, ExDistrictDriver, GoochyB, postal |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 23:34 #29474 | |
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postal
5264 posts |
Posting removed.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 15/02/2012 at 00:36 by postal Log in to reply |
| Re: I'm having difficulties understanding Lime St 14/02/2012 at 23:49 #29475 | |
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Firefly
521 posts |
The idea of any simulator is that you can cock up in a controlled environment. Many people would fall asleep if being lectured on how to operate an iecc or if made to read a manual. Routing trains on an iecc is not rocket science, so let the rookies get stuck in, they can ask questions on things they can't do or don't understand and the instructor can debrief them on their performance. It's so much easier to learn on the job than it is to learn from a book. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Aurora |