Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate

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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 28/04/2019 at 11:48 #117893
hotwellian
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211 posts 		Just a query about the routes to and from Wakefield kirkgate. On both the timetables that i have run most passenger trains are routed to and from the station on the slow line, rather than the first. Wondered why this is so.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 28/04/2019 at 12:31 #117895
Edgemaster
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332 posts 		There's a 20mph speed limit on the turnout from the Down L&Y to the Down L&Y Fast. The through route is along the Slow line, and has a 40mph limit over the junction. Both lines have the same linespeed of 60mph beyond the junction.

In the Up direction, the Fast line is the through route, and has a line speed of 60mph all the way, with the Slow line being 20mph at the Horbury Jn crossover.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 28/04/2019 at 15:23 #117896
hotwellian
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211 posts 		Thanks, I understand.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 28/04/2019 at 21:48 #117902
Soton_Speed
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285 posts 		Edgemaster in post 117895 said:
In the Up direction, the Fast line is the through route, and has a line speed of 60mph all the way, with the Slow line being 20mph at the Horbury Jn crossover.
Apologies for missing the obvious but, is the reason that an Up train routed Slow Line @ Wakefield West Jn then to Barnsley @ Horbury Jn gets all Greens (verses Fast @ Wakefield West) because the driver should be expecting a 20mph psr over Horbury Jn - as seen in this video? Is either routing preferred in real life for trains towards Barnsley?
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 06/12/2020 at 21:16 #134418
danners430
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135 posts 		Apologies for reviving an old thread, but I've seen a few new timetables released with the incorrect line routings, and there still seems to be some confusion. The following is the information I got from one of the resident Kirkgate signallers regarding a long-standing local arrangement between Horbury Jn and Kirkgate:

Trains to Barnsley - routed onto the Up Slow at Kirkgate, and across the Fast at Horbury.
Trains from Barnsley - routed onto the Down Fast at Horbury.
This is because the turnout speed for Barnsley is 20mph anyway, regardless where you're coming from or going to on the Kirkgate lines, so you might as well put them on the slower lines on approach / after the junction.

Trains to Healey Mills - routed onto the Up Fast at Kirkgate, and straight on with no speed restriction at Horbury.
Trains from Healey Mills - routed onto the Down Slow at Horbury, straight on with no speed restriction.
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Last edited: 06/12/2020 at 21:17 by danners430
Reason: Neatness
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 06/12/2020 at 21:44 #134420
Steamer
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3997 posts 		danners430 in post 134418 said:
Apologies for reviving an old thread, but I've seen a few new timetables released with the incorrect line routings, and there still seems to be some confusion.
There haven't been any timetables for West Yorkshire made available so far, other than the two that are supplied with the simulation?

I can add a note to the manual to reflect the information you've given, however generally line codes are transcribed directly from the relevant source material. It isn't uncommon for the path/platform/line codes in the WTT to bear little resemblance to what happens on the ground.
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Last edited: 06/12/2020 at 21:44 by Steamer
Reason: None given
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 06/12/2020 at 22:19 #134421
danners430
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135 posts 		It may be an upcoming timetable I'm referring to then :-)
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 07/12/2020 at 00:12 #134422
phil1044
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162 posts 		I have a Oct 2018 timetable for West Yorkshire finished and on test at the moment, it will chain with my other three Leeds area Timetables when I'm happy with it.
Its great fun doing a 4 chain run solo !

Phil....
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 07/12/2020 at 13:27 #134426
andyallen4014
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373 posts
Online 		I think the key question is whether the timetables have the routings incorrect or whether they are in fact correct as per the official timetables and it is local signalling arrangements that differ from that, in which case the timetables would be technically 'correct'.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 07/12/2020 at 14:12 #134427
phil1044
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162 posts 		andyallen4014 in post 134426 said:
I think the key question is whether the timetables have the routings incorrect or whether they are in fact correct as per the official timetables and it is local signalling arrangements that differ from that, in which case the timetables would be technically 'correct'.
Just to add to Andy's comment, the routings in my TTs are as per the WTTs. If the signaller wishes to re-route trains as per local practices then thats fine. In reality the official routings is what they are given, then they can amend accordingly if need be.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 08/12/2020 at 09:10 #134433
kbarber
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1764 posts 		phil1044 in post 134427 said:
andyallen4014 in post 134426 said:
I think the key question is whether the timetables have the routings incorrect or whether they are in fact correct as per the official timetables and it is local signalling arrangements that differ from that, in which case the timetables would be technically 'correct'.
Just to add to Andy's comment, the routings in my TTs are as per the WTTs. If the signaller wishes to re-route trains as per local practices then thats fine. In reality the official routings is what they are given, then they can amend accordingly if need be.
It always used to be that the preamble to the timetable explicitly authorised signalmen to use alternative lines where they were available. No justification needed. So long as you didn't hammer anything.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 08/12/2020 at 11:12 #134436
jc92
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3701 posts 		kbarber in post 134433 said:
phil1044 in post 134427 said:
andyallen4014 in post 134426 said:
I think the key question is whether the timetables have the routings incorrect or whether they are in fact correct as per the official timetables and it is local signalling arrangements that differ from that, in which case the timetables would be technically 'correct'.
Just to add to Andy's comment, the routings in my TTs are as per the WTTs. If the signaller wishes to re-route trains as per local practices then thats fine. In reality the official routings is what they are given, then they can amend accordingly if need be.
It always used to be that the preamble to the timetable explicitly authorised signalmen to use alternative lines where they were available. No justification needed. So long as you didn't hammer anything.
I recall an ancient chain game circa 2011 when we had trent and sheffield chained and the Royal train got sent goods line between Clay Cross and Chesterfield due to a TCF on the mains. Fun times.
"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 09/12/2020 at 08:59 #134493
kbarber
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1764 posts 		jc92 in post 134436 said:
kbarber in post 134433 said:
phil1044 in post 134427 said:
andyallen4014 in post 134426 said:
I think the key question is whether the timetables have the routings incorrect or whether they are in fact correct as per the official timetables and it is local signalling arrangements that differ from that, in which case the timetables would be technically 'correct'.
Just to add to Andy's comment, the routings in my TTs are as per the WTTs. If the signaller wishes to re-route trains as per local practices then thats fine. In reality the official routings is what they are given, then they can amend accordingly if need be.
It always used to be that the preamble to the timetable explicitly authorised signalmen to use alternative lines where they were available. No justification needed. So long as you didn't hammer anything.
I recall an ancient chain game circa 2011 when we had trent and sheffield chained and the Royal train got sent goods line between Clay Cross and Chesterfield due to a TCF on the mains. Fun times.
Why not. A Royal could go where nothing else would go. And Gerry Fiennes' story about the distant that fell off the post is well known (even if the reality was a bit more elaborate still...)
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 03/01/2021 at 21:58 #135941
Albert
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1315 posts 		Edgemaster in post 117895 said:
There's a 20mph speed limit on the turnout from the Down L&Y to the Down L&Y Fast.
This speed limit doesn't appear to be replicated in the sim - bug? Just had a freight go over these points from the L&Y to the Down Fast at 40mph in-sim.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 04/01/2021 at 15:16 #135958
Jan
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907 posts 		Yup, noticed the same thing a while ago (issue #27875).
Two million people attempt to use Birmingham's magnificent rail network every year, with just over a million of them managing to get further than Smethwick.
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Query on routing at Wakefield Kirkgate 06/01/2021 at 15:46 #136045
Dionysusnu
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580 posts 		What's the speed limit on points 2507, the up slow to up fast at Wakefield West Jn? For nonstop trains from UP L&Y to healey mills, which of the two crossovers is preferred?
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