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Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 15:01 #153727 | |
bugsy
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I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train. But each time that I do so, I wonder if this is common practice or whether the signallers just wait for a phone call. So what actually happens in real life? Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 15:24 #153728 | |
JamesN
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bugsy in post 153727 said:I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 15:26 #153729 | |
jamesktaylor
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On the GSM-R there is a function which shows the list of trains and they select who they want to call and send a message saying call signaller. They never call them its a message that gets sent out to the drivers GSM-R
Please do not keep pushing the buttons when the doors are closed it will not open No matter how hard you try. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 15:33 #153730 | |
Ron_J
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jamesktaylor in post 153729 said:On the GSM-R there is a function which shows the list of trains and they select who they want to call and send a message saying call signaller. They never call them its a message that gets sent out to the drivers GSM-RWell, never say never. You’re right, a signaller shouldn’t be calling a moving train except in an emergency but there’s no restriction on directly calling a driver of a train which is at a stand. You don’t have to send ‘Contact Signaller’ first and many signallers will just use the button to call the train directly if they know it’s stationary. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 16:01 #153731 | |
bugsy
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JamesN in post 153728 said:bugsy in post 153727 said:What's the long answer??I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 16:27 #153732 | |
TUT
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bugsy in post 153731 said:JamesN in post 153728 said:Well in fairness it is mainly given above.bugsy in post 153727 said:What's the long answer??I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. Pre GSM-R you would really have had to wait for the driver to ring from the Signal Post Telephone. It is possible to ring an SPT from the box but I dunno how likely it is that it would have been heard. If you didn't have an SPT in a mechanical area and you needed to authorise a driver to pass signals at danger beyond a signal box you'd have to stop the driver at the box with a red handsignal and give the instructions out of the window. With GSM-R you can send a 'contact signaller' message and the driver will ring you usually when they're at a stand but some of them will ring you while still moving, that is up to the driver. You can also just wait for the call, there's no rule saying you must send a contact signaller message but you'd be well advised to otherwise you could have a long wait for a call. The rules say that a driver should contact you as soon as possible when brought to a stand at a red signal, or after two minutes if it is readily apparent why the train is being held, unless signs at the signal or the sectional appendix defines some other minimum waiting time. However I would say that it's quite rare for that to be done these days as, I suppose, drivers expect a 'contact signaller' message from you if you need to talk to them. I'm sure it might be different if a train is detained in an unusual place, but if a train is stopped at a signal where it's common to be held they won't necessarily be on the phone immediately or even within 2 minutes. What they can also do instead is send a standing at signal message on the GSM-R instead of ringing and the signaller can respond to that with a 'wait' message or they can ring the driver in response to that. As has been said if you can see the train is at a stand you can absolutely ring the train yourself. I find it can be a lot quicker that way. The rules to signallers say you must not use the train radio to speak to the driver unless you are sure the train is at a standstill, except in an emergency. The rules to drivers give them a bit more flexibility in deciding whether it is appropriate to use the train radio while the train is moving. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 16:44 #153733 | |
Hap
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TUT in post 153732 said:bugsy in post 153731 said:Then you have the Train Crew side of things, where we can press the SG button on the GSM-r, to which to most common reply back on the display is "wait".JamesN in post 153728 said:Well in fairness it is mainly given above.bugsy in post 153727 said:What's the long answer??I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 19:55 #153740 | |
metcontrol
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Hap in post 153733 said:Then you have the Train Crew side of things, where we can press the SG button on the GSM-r, to which to most common reply back on the display is "wait".Ironically, despite the fact that on my LUL patch I only supervise a very small section of the Chiltern service, influenced by such comments in various threads on here in the past, I now generally contact drivers on receipt of a such a message and only send the "Wait" reply if I am too busy to give a detailed response or if it appears evident the train will get clear signals within the next short period of time. On LUL - and Metropolitan Line only - it is currently the Line Controllers and not the signallers who have the GSM-R radio available to them. Also now taken on board (though kind of partly knew / suspected) the extent to which it is advised that a train should be at a stand when contacting the driver. This has never been properly educated to us on LUL so I will pass this on to my colleagues, as I have to say it is common for us to contact Chiltern trains as we do our own trains, mostly regardless of whether they are moving or not. There will be occasions during more serious incidents where this is considered, but other less serious incidents may not have this consideration. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 20:08 #153741 | |
Splodge
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I think it depends on TOC policy - at Northern we don't use GSM-R on the move but I don't think Avanti, for example, have the same restriction so can make and receive calls if a situation requires. Also it is 'at danger' and not 'stop' which is the language SimSig chooses to use in the phone call menus for some reason. There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 20:14 #153742 | |
TUT
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metcontrol in post 153740 said:Also now taken on board (though kind of partly knew / suspected) the extent to which it is advised that a train should be at a stand when contacting the driver. This has never been properly educated to us on LUL so I will pass this on to my colleagues, as I have to say it is common for us to contact Chiltern trains as we do our own trains, mostly regardless of whether they are moving or not. There will be occasions during more serious incidents where this is considered, but other less serious incidents may not have this consideration.If you're interested in chapter and verse: Addressed to the driver: Quote: Addressed to the signaller (under the same headings of the same Rule Book module): Quote: However, I have long suspected that TOC controllers don't necessarily have the same restrictions placed on them. It is also not uncommon for a signaller to be contacted by a driver on the move to discuss relief or routing options and things like that, that's up to them. Also there is provision, with quite a lot of detailed intricacies that we needn't get into, for the signaller to set up a berth-triggered broadcast to allow certain safety messages to be broadcast to trains on the move. These must be acknowledged by the driver if understood, in which case the signal at which the train would normally be stopped so that the driver can be cautioned may be cleared. If the message is not acknowledged said signal must be maintained at danger and the driver cautioned in the normal way. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 20:28 #153744 | |
metcontrol
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Thank you for that. I am a Trainer for our controllers and will pass this on to my fellow trainers. We got given the kit and shown how to work it but never had the education of other points such as this. It's very much a sense of "They're on our patch so must abide by our rules" but this is extra to that and should be honoured I think.
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Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 20:45 #153745 | |
jc92
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Splodge in post 153741 said:I think it depends on TOC policy - at Northern we don't use GSM-R on the move but I don't think Avanti, for example, have the same restriction so can make and receive calls if a situation requires.I suspect you're right as I know at least one TOC which does authorise it where the driver considers it safe and appropriate. From a control perspective, I'd never call a driver directly while they're on a train. A text asking them to call me is sufficient, along with obligatory "are you safe to talk" at the start of the call. They won't call until they're off train or stationary. For anything pressing like being diverted or getting relieved at a different location, I would call route who can advise the signaller (who needs to know anyway of course) who can speak to the driver directly via GSMR when it's safe to do so. Now whether every company holds its control staff to that standard or not is a different question. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 21:16 #153746 | |
Ron_J
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Hap in post 153733 said:TUT in post 153732 said:There are only two available responses for the signaller to choose from - ‘Wait’ and ‘Contact Signaller’. In the early days of the original Yoker GSM-R trial it was possible to compose a text message on the signaller’s terminal and send it to one or more cab mobiles but this functionality was rapidly withdrawn after the signallers started broadcasting football results. It is still possible to send texts between signallers terminals, though very few I’ve spoken to realised this.bugsy in post 153731 said:Then you have the Train Crew side of things, where we can press the SG button on the GSM-r, to which to most common reply back on the display is "wait".JamesN in post 153728 said:Well in fairness it is mainly given above.bugsy in post 153727 said:What's the long answer??I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: TUT |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 19/10/2023 at 21:29 #153747 | |
TUT
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Ron_J in post 153746 said:There are only two available responses for the signaller to choose from - ‘Wait’ and ‘Contact Signaller’. In the early days of the original Yoker GSM-R trial it was possible to compose a text message on the signaller’s terminal and send it to one or more cab mobiles but this functionality was rapidly withdrawn after the signallers started broadcasting football results. It is still possible to send texts between signallers terminals, though very few I’ve spoken to realised this.Although of course you do also get the button to initiate the phone call in response. I get text messages from other boxes on the GSM-R all the time, although I only ever send text messages in reply to other text messages as I hate tapping them out and much prefer having an actual conversation with an actual human being but eh to each their own. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 20/10/2023 at 10:56 #153751 | |
kbarber
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TUT in post 153732 said:bugsy in post 153731 said:Even the ability to ring an SPT varied. I would say that, until at least the 1980s, the norm was that ringing was one-way. Moreover, the standard SPT gear I was familiar with chose for itself which call would be connected if there were several waiting (I think it was the order in which the calls were made). Which could mean having to tell a driver well down a long queue to ring back in five a moment before authorising the driver at the head of the queue (who had lengthened his two minutes when in fact you needed him to call in immediately) to get on the move.JamesN in post 153728 said:Well in fairness it is mainly given above.bugsy in post 153727 said:What's the long answer??I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.Short answer - it depends. I have an idea the Southern differed, with callback facilities from the signalbox concentrator, but although I went in a few of the SR and BR(S) power frame boxes I never had cause to see the SPTs used. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 22/10/2023 at 08:09 #153765 | |
Giantray
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bugsy in post 153727 said:I have been authorising trains to pass a signal at danger by phoning the driver of said train.I have worked the London Bridge Simsig area, for over three decades, so here is my experience of the changes I have seen. Before the advent of any in-cab radio based equipment, you would ring the Signal Post Telephone(SPT) and leave it ringing. Eventually the driver would get out the cab and go to the phone. The driver would be unaware there was a problem if stopped at a red signal, so would stay in the cab unless they had been there for a while, they would attempt to contact the signaller on the SPT. This obviously would take some time. The signaller would, if the failure was long term, arrange for the driver to be told at the last station stop, by station staff, to contact the signaller at the signal held at danger. This speeded things up as the driver was aware. Or if failures were to go on for a length of time, have a Handsignalman Positioned at the Signal. They would ring the Signaller from the SPT as the train approached, and the Signaller would give any necessary instructions to the Handsignalman, and they would flag the train past the signal, there being no direct communication between Signaller & Driver. Today Handsignalling can only be authorised by a Senior Manager on the Southern, not sure if it applies Nationally. Cab Secure Radio (CSR)/ GSM-R communications simplified things because it meant the signaller could contact the driver in the cab, removed the time taken for the driver to leave the cab and answer an SPT. Performance became an issue once we were privatised. So to speed things up even more, a "Zero Plate" was designed. A Field Manager (now Mobile Ops Manager (MOM)), would go to the failed Signal and fit the zero plate to the signal post. The driver on seeing this zero plate knew they had to contact the signaller immediately on arrival at the signal. With CSR/GSM-r, you could ring the driver and it would connect without the driver picking up the handset and you could talk and the driver hear. This later on was claimed to be a distraction to the driver and so we were told to avoid contacting a driver approaching a red signal. Unlike CSR, GSM-R has a "contact Signaller" facility. So now the signaller sends this to the train concerned, and the Driver decides when to contact the signaller. Some Drivers will answer whilst on the move, some Drivers will wait until they have stopped the train. I personally, would only attempt to contact the Driver if I was in a position to authorise the move and was not doing anything else. In other words, the previous train had gone clear and the route to be used has been set up. Things are getting simpler. The advent of Proceed on Sight Authority (PoSA) has made the passing of signals at red easier. With these, there is only the need to talk to the first driver over the failed section of line, after that where PoSA signals have been installed, these can be used to pass Controlled signals held at Danger by faults or failures. So long as point detection can still be correctly detected, these PoSA signals allow the signaller to set a route through the fault or failure without speaking to a driver. Basically a PoSA is similar to a Call On Position Light Signal, except that its two white lights flash. This indicates to the Driver to pass the Red Signal, and proceed as far as the line can be seen clear to the next signal. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: mldaureol |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 00:57 #153774 | |
Richard Gore
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What (if I may ask) are the material differences between a PoSA and a subsidiary signal? I realise they are a different class of route but how does a driver's behaviour when driving under them materially differ enough to warrant a different aspect?
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Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 06:22 #153775 | |
clive
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Richard Gore in post 153774 said:What (if I may ask) are the material differences between a PoSA and a subsidiary signal? I realise they are a different class of route but how does a driver's behaviour when driving under them materially differ enough to warrant a different aspect?A subsidiary signal says to the driver, among other things, either they're heading for a siding or they're entering (say) a platform which probably has another train in it. If a train full of passengers gets signalled into a siding, the driver's going to be someone confused/worried. If it gets signalled into an occupied platform, the driver isn't going to expect a train other than at the far end of the platform. POSA says "this is a normal route; you aren't going into the sidings, but any obstruction could be anywhere along the section and not just at the normal permissive places". While the driver should be ready to stop anyway, POSA indicates it's not the normal circumstance and also that it's a route allowed for passenger trains. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 07:42 #153776 | |
Giantray
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Richard Gore in post 153774 said:What (if I may ask) are the material differences between a PoSA and a subsidiary signal? I realise they are a different class of route but how does a driver's behaviour when driving under them materially differ enough to warrant a different aspect? The way they are used. A Subsidary/Call-on Position light Signal permits the Signaller to signal a train onto an occupied line, the Driver will proceed as far as the line is clear. Clive is part right regarding sendin a train onto occupied platform, except, the driver will expect the platform to have a trains somewhere along it, not necessarilly at the far end, could be anywhere along the platform. PoSA signals were as the name states, proceed on sight authority. They were originally developed to permit the Signaller to set a PoSA and leave it set throughout the failure, allowing trains to permissively wok the section of line, hence the "Proceed on Sight". Originally if the driver saw a train in the section ahead, they were not to proceed until the could see the line ahead clear. If when proceeding PoSA, they later on see a train ahead, they were to stop and not proceed until the train was out of sight. Before PoSA became rule, the process changed. Now the Signaller has to ensure the section of line is clear of any trains before allowing a train to proceed on a PoSA. The signaller, once set, has to collar the PoSA until the train authorised to proceed under PoSA has cleared the section including the overlap of the next Signal ahead. Once the train has clear, the Signaller will cancel the route and remove the collar. PoSA came about because it reduces Signaller work load in talking to drivers. It was a development of a rule that allows the Signaller to use a Subsidary signal to signal trains where a Main Signal cannot be cleared. So the main difference between a PoSA and Subsidary Signal, PoSAs do not permit Permissive Working, whereas subsidarys do. And PoSA flash to indicate to Drivers they are not being called on to an occupied line, nor incorrectly signalled into a siding. At London Bridge, Platforms 2 & 3, 8 & 9, Permissive working is permitted for running around Locomotives on Engineering Trains. Not permitted for Passenger working. The same Subsidary Signals, on Main Signals, are also PoSA signals. On the WestCad Screen the Signaller has separate soft keys to select to determine which signal is used. Professionalism mean nothing around a bunch of Amatuer wannabees! Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 11:49 #153780 | |
Richard Gore
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Thank you. I see how it is useful for the driver to know they are not being sent into a siding. I do not quite understand how it is useful to the driver to know that permissive working is not permitted, though—if they are proceeding on sight they need to stop short of any obstacles regardless, no?
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Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 15:51 #153782 | |
lazzer
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Ron_J in post 153746 said:There are only two available responses for the signaller to choose from - ‘Wait’ and ‘Contact Signaller’. In the early days of the original Yoker GSM-R trial it was possible to compose a text message on the signaller’s terminal and send it to one or more cab mobiles but this functionality was rapidly withdrawn after the signallers started broadcasting football results. It is still possible to send texts between signallers terminals, though very few I’ve spoken to realised this.I well remember my GSM-R training back in 2011. Every bloody scenario involved speaking to the Yoker East signaller, except for one where we got to speak to ... the Yoker West signaller LOL! Also, the guy doing the course insisted on pronouncing "Yoker" as "Yorker". Is that the correct pronunciation, not being a local and all that. It's been bugging me for the last 12 years ... Last edited: 23/10/2023 at 15:51 by lazzer Reason: None given Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 23/10/2023 at 19:28 #153785 | |
clive
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Giantray in post 153776 said:Yes, that's very true, and I was too quick in writing. I was thinking of the common case of a platform in two halves, whereas of course that's not the only scenario and the driver should be prepared for a train to be anywhere. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 24/10/2023 at 07:56 #153786 | |
kbarber
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Richard Gore in post 153780 said:Thank you. I see how it is useful for the driver to know they are not being sent into a siding. I do not quite understand how it is useful to the driver to know that permissive working is not permitted, though—if they are proceeding on sight they need to stop short of any obstacles regardless, no?A driver is normally required to challenge any signal they think is incorrect. Knowing where permissive working is permitted (and under what conditions) should be part of their route learning. It used to be that Permissive Block had three flavours: Goods lines (assumed to be permissive unless otherwise shown in the Sectional Appendix and needing special arrangements for working passenger trains over them plus advising the driver verbally each time), Passenger (permissive working permitted for freight trains only) and Platform (permissive working for passenger trains only). I vaguely recall that permissive working under modern TCB Regs is broken down into the kinds of move it's authorised for and whether normal working or 'emergency', plus goods lines where there are subsidiaries under all the main signals. For various reasons it's not unknown for a train to pick up a wrong description and the signaller (or ARS) will, of course, work to the description unless told otherwise. The driver needs to know what is and isn't authorised so they can whistle up the bobby and put them right if something has gone amiss in that way. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Richard Gore |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 24/10/2023 at 18:02 #153789 | |
Ron_J
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lazzer in post 153782 said:Also, the guy doing the course insisted on pronouncing "Yoker" as "Yorker". Is that the correct pronunciation, not being a local and all that. It's been bugging me for the last 12 years ...It’s pronounced Yolk- (as in the yellow bit in the middle of an egg) -er. You can hear a local say it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YfRbNipdOg&t=24s If you’re going to watch the whole sketch be aware there’ a bit of naughty language. Log in to reply |
Authorising a train to pass a signal at danger 24/10/2023 at 19:58 #153790 | |
lazzer
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Ron_J in post 153789 said:lazzer in post 153782 said:I suspected the guy doing the course was an idiot. Now I've had it confirmed :-)Also, the guy doing the course insisted on pronouncing "Yoker" as "Yorker". Is that the correct pronunciation, not being a local and all that. It's been bugging me for the last 12 years ...It’s pronounced Yolk- (as in the yellow bit in the middle of an egg) -er. Log in to reply |