Ticketing - (Was problems getting to Glasgow Meet)

HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:

I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..

Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter

Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:

HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:

I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..

Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter

If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available Glasgow train at Preston. The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi.

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.

Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:

HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:

I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..

Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter

If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available VT train to Glasgow at Preston [NRCOC 9.4] . The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi [NRCOC 28.2].

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do. Per Advance Ticket conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx As the two sections are under different tickets, they're counted as different, unrelated journies.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.

Steamer in post 111863 said:

Peter Bennet in post 111858 said:

HST125Scorton in post 111854 said:

I hate to say this but again Northern Strike Timetable for 8 September has crippled my chances of getting to/from Preston for start!!
I have a booked Advanced Ticket for 0845 Preston to Glasgow 1115 VWC Service, but first train off Blackpool North is 0838 'Charming' I get back to Preston for around 2015 and guess what last time to Blackpool North 1932 'Hype'

I'm working out how I'm going to get to/from Preston at present, I do know that Northern/RMT are scheduled to talk this week but unknown which date. I'm praying the strikes drop and they achieve some agreement talks etc. If the strikes don't drop and I don't find a way of getting to/from Preston then sadly I won't be attending which is a great shame as I'm looking forward to this etc. I'll Keep posted for now I'll remain as attending..

Don't forget that you can claim for consequential loss, such as a taxi, under the Consumer Rights Act. Also if you paid by Credit Card, you can claim the compensation from the Credit Card Company if you get no joy from Northern Rail.

Peter

If "HST125Scorton" booked a ticket from Blackpool to Glasgow, then presumably he would be fine to catch the first available Northern service (be it train or replacement bus) from Blackpool and change to the first available VT train to Glasgow at Preston [NRCOC 9.4] . The fact he couldn't make the booked train would be Northern's fault for cancelling the planned train from Blackpool. On the return, my understanding is that, if no train or RRB is going to Blackpool for the rest of the night, the station staff should provide a taxi [NRCOC 28.2].

However, if he only booked the Advance from Preston to Glasgow, wit the intention of booking Blackpool- Preston on the day, I don't think there's anything he can do. Per Advance Ticket conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx As the two sections are under different tickets, they're counted as different, unrelated journies.

As TOCs tend to do as much as possible to avoid being brought to book on Consumer Rights issues [good luck trying to get anything back for having to travel on an RRB vice train, for example], he'd probably have to start legal proceedings to get anything from them on those grounds.

This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.

DaveHarries in post 111856 said:

HST125Scorton in post 111740 said:

Any ideas on the sims likely to be in use? Presume something scottish?

Hmmm I wonder. Can't help thinking that Glasgow Central would be fun if it was a possibility but I am not aware if this has been in development.

Dave

If we are in Glasgow, maybe the Clockwork Orange would be a good sim. The July 2016 TT would be cracking.

This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.

In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid).

Somewhere I have letters from ATOC and the Department of Transport on the matter of split ticketing, delay-repay and combinations and permutations thereof, I can't recall the full details but the gist is that a pssenger should be treated the same as if they had a single ticket. Unfortunately, I've not yet had to quote any of them at anybody.

headshot119 in post 111867 said:

This advice is dangerously incorrect.

A journey can be completed using one or more tickets, and the entire journey is covered by the NRCOT.

I assume you're referring to the second paragraph, not the first paragraph (which re-states the text found in the NRCOC)?

There does appear to be conflicting advice on the subject. Section 14.4 of NRCOT does specifically say:

Quote:

In all cases you must comply with the specific terms and conditions of each of the Tickets you are using (for example, keeping to the valid route(s) and train services for which each Ticket is valid).

However, Peter's been advised of the opposite:

Peter Bennet said:

Somewhere I have letters from ATOC and the Department of Transport on the matter of split ticketing, delay-repay and combinations and permutations thereof, I can't recall the full details but the gist is that a pssenger should be treated the same as if they had a single ticket. Unfortunately, I've not yet had to quote any of them at anybody.

I've yet to come up with a plan at present. I've contacted Northern Customer Services and well I might aswell not have bothered.
Only way I can think of is getting to Preston on last train Friday evening arriving 2344 and stopping all night at Preston then get my train to Glasgow etc. I can then sort a lift back home from a family member etc.

Although I'm waiting on news from Northern/RMT at present.

PS I'm now in a meeting most of this afternoon so won't get any replies until I'm home.

If the tickets have been split though, you'll only be refunded for the delay on that service, regardless if your intended destination is 300 miles away. the contract of the ticket you purchased is between the origin and destination of that one ticket. It's a loophole that can't really be won. So if you have AP tickets split 4 times en route and the 1st train was delayed by 65 minutes and you missed every other connection, you would only be able to claim back the 1st AP ticket. If the AP ticket was for the full desired journey and that same first train was delayed, then you would get the 100% refund.

Hap in post 111887 said:

If the tickets have been split though, you'll only be refunded for the delay on that service, regardless if your intended destination is 300 miles away. the contract of the ticket you purchased is between the origin and destination of that one ticket. It's a loophole that can't really be won. So if you have AP tickets split 4 times en route and the 1st train was delayed by 65 minutes and you missed every other connection, you would only be able to claim back the 1st AP ticket. If the AP ticket was for the full desired journey and that same first train was delayed, then you would get the 100% refund.

No, the contract is for a journey from A to B, and that can be made up of a combination of tickets. If the journey is delayed, the journey should be refunded, regardless of how many tickets were used. So long as you leave the minimum connection time between services (or stay on the same service), they should be refunded just fine.

Yes the contract is from A to B per each ticket, without any official/documented transfer between each split ticket, this becomes void in terms of compensation. That first ticket may have 'LNER + connections' but that is only for the itinerary of that first ticket. Once you reach the destination of that first ticket, (Where you have chosen to split the ticket) You are starting a new journey on a completely new ticket that has no relation what so ever on the first one, and no relation to the next one if there is a combination of split tickets.

Passengers take the risk of splitting ticket multiple times. In some cases, not even with the appropriate transfer times.

If you buy your desired journey for the full length on one ticket then each connection of the journey is covered by any of the trains that that ticket is scheduled to be used on.

If you have 5 tickets to get you from Bristol to Glasgow. Then all you have is 5 different tickets for 5 different A to B journeys. If you have tickets planned that you remain on the same train, you will still be treated as boarding the train from each origin per ticket per section of that route to where you remain on the same train.

Yes, split tickets for a full journey on the same train Could be entitled to a possible full or part refund, but only from where the train began to incur a delay. If that delay began on the 3rd split ticket onwards then it will be paid back from that ticket to the destination. (If the desired trigger points are met)

For example, Say you have booked 5 tickets from Bristol to Glasgow for the same train, but you are delayed getting into New Street, and that's a destination of one of your tickets. XC have stepped up a unit and that train has left RT from New Street. You're goosed. Your AP ticket from New street to next splitting point or destination isn't going to be valid. They system doesn't know that you've bought a collection of tickets for the full duration of that train journey. All that it see's is that you have a ticket from New Street to wherever and you've missed it. It doesn't know that you are on the delayed train, which has been stepped up to to ensure RT running. Again, this is the risk people take with split tickets.

If that train was 30 minutes late on one part of that ticket but the delay fell below 29 minutes for the next or remainder of tickets, then a claim can only be made on the affected ticket on the basis that you technically arrived at the destination of that Mantis 30+ minutes late.

I have had this conversation before with passengers and brought it up to the relevant department and this is what I have been told.

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

No, the contract is for a journey from A to B, and that can be made up of a combination of tickets. If the journey is delayed, the journey should be refunded, regardless of how many tickets were used. So long as you leave the minimum connection time between services (or stay on the same service), they should be refunded just fine.

14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a
journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change
from one Ticket to another.

Yes the contract is from A to B per each ticket, without any official/documented transfer between each split ticket, this becomes void in terms of compensation. That first ticket may have 'LNER + connections' but that is only for the itinerary of that first ticket. Once you reach the destination of that first ticket, (Where you have chosen to split the ticket) You are starting a new journey on a completely new ticket that has no relation what so ever on the first one, and no relation to the next one if there is a combination of split tickets.

Passengers take the risk of splitting ticket multiple times. In some cases, not even with the appropriate transfer times.

If you buy your desired journey for the full length on one ticket then each connection of the journey is covered by any of the trains that that ticket is scheduled to be used on.

If you have 5 tickets to get you from Bristol to Glasgow. Then all you have is 5 different tickets for 5 different A to B journeys. If you have tickets planned that you remain on the same train, you will still be treated as boarding the train from each origin per ticket per section of that route to where you remain on the same train.

Yes, split tickets for a full journey on the same train Could be entitled to a possible full or part refund, but only from where the train began to incur a delay. If that delay began on the 3rd split ticket onwards then it will be paid back from that ticket to the destination. (If the desired trigger points are met)

For example, Say you have booked 5 tickets from Bristol to Glasgow for the same train, but you are delayed getting into New Street, and that's a destination of one of your tickets. XC have stepped up a unit and that train has left RT from New Street. You're goosed. Your AP ticket from New street to next splitting point or destination isn't going to be valid. They system doesn't know that you've bought a collection of tickets for the full duration of that train journey. All that it see's is that you have a ticket from New Street to wherever and you've missed it. It doesn't know that you are on the delayed train, which has been stepped up to to ensure RT running. Again, this is the risk people take with split tickets.

If that train was 30 minutes late on one part of that ticket but the delay fell below 29 minutes for the next or remainder of tickets, then a claim can only be made on the affected ticket on the basis that you technically arrived at the destination of that Mantis 30+ minutes late.

I have had this conversation before with passengers and brought it up to the relevant department and this is what I have been told.

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Which book? Is it available for the public to view?

Sacro in post 111897 said:

Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Which book? Is it available for the public to view?

The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

postal in post 111898 said:

Sacro in post 111897 said:

Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Which book? Is it available for the public to view?

The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

Irrelevant. You can't be starting/breaking a journey if you don't get off a train.

Sacro in post 111899 said:

postal in post 111898 said:

Sacro in post 111897 said:

Hap in post 111893 said:

With AP tickets, by the book, you have to board and alight at each origin and destination.

Which book? Is it available for the public to view?

The National Rail web-site (Advance ticket terms and conditions).

The particular section of interest is:

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

Irrelevant. You can't be starting/breaking a journey if you don't get off a train.

Obviously someone not used with the intricacies of T&Cs. The point that Hap made and which you clearly did not understand was that you could only legitimately use your AP ticket by boarding at the originating station and leaving at the destination station for the journey you had purchased. This is explicitly stated in the NR T&Cs but again the language is not the clearest. Breaking the sentence down, you may not start your journey at any intermediate station neither may you end your journey at any intermediate station.

Perhaps you could take the time to explain which bit of that is irrelevant.

It sounds to me like you're reading the inverse of that section. It says you can't leave a train except to change whilst on an Advance, it doesn't say that you have to enter a train to start an Advance, nor leave to end it. I've never ever heard this rule before.

Oh, unless you're confusing the use of the word "journey", if you're switching tickets, you're still on the same journey.

The point that Hap was trying to make is that you must use your AP for the full journey from start to finish and cannot use it to join a journey at a location after the originating point, nor can you leave and terminate your journey at a location before the destination point of your AP ticket. This is confirmed by the NR website.

Perhaps you are arguing the corner case that you may have travelled on the AP train from a point prior to the originating point of your AP on another ticket, therefore you can start your AP without at that point entering a train? There is the same argument about not leaving the train at the destination of your AP as you have another ticket to continue on the same train. If so you are making your point in very narrow legalistic terms but I think the Man on the Clapham Omnibus might have doubts about your common sense and I challenge you to find a member of the revenue protection staff that would require you to leave a train at the cessation of the journey on another ticket in order to re-board the train with your AP.

If that is not your argument, perhaps you could explain in terms that people less arcane than yourself can understand exactly what point you are trying to make.