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| Sheffield 1983-1984 17/06/2010 at 10:59 #9662 | |
flymo
135 posts |
Appetite firmly whetted with anticipation. Ill give it a go as a single player, well you have to don't you.  Looking forward to it. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 17/06/2010 at 18:18 #9668 | |
ozzyd9001
131 posts |
ahhhhh thats another 5 weeks worth of fun?? i carnt wait but will have to turn the sound of as wifey will be upset at all those phone calls yours paul Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 18/06/2010 at 08:48 #9678 | |
58050
2659 posts |
That's an issue Meld & I found out the other day playing a multi-player between ourselves. Meld controlled screens 2, 3 & 4, whilst I controlled screen 1, 5 & 6. There were a few occasions where the phone calls were backing up. No sooner did you accpt a train from either yard shunter or depot supervisor did you then get the driver of said train ringing to say he was waiting at a red signal. There were at least a couple of times where we had to pause the game to get top side of it & when you consider we are fairly expert at this timetable, not only through playing it on a number of occasions to sort out problems, but also in my case of having written the timetable in the first place I must admit it is a bit over-whelming at times. Although there aren't as many trains in the timetable as King's Cross, what makes this one alot busier is the amount of shunting, run rounds, loco changes at other locations such as Barrow Hill, Woodhouse Jn Sdgs, Earles Sdgs & trains dividing & adding at Sheffield station which tends to make it busier than King's Cross. in alot of cases these things are occuring simultaneously. Hence the warning that this is really for multi-player use only. I wonder whether you will all be as keen to get started with it once you have played the first 6 hours, which is the easy bit.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 18/06/2010 at 13:32 #9690 | |
MJD
149 posts |
Did i hear right ""Easy""
Mike. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 18/06/2010 at 14:11 #9694 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
I'm taking it from my perspective. I've lost count of the number of times I've played Sheffield 1983 - 1984 timetable between 0000 & 0700am, so yes I do find this part easy. It doesn't mean anyone else will. I'm just used to the moves & know what to expect. I suspect if you asked Meld & AndyG the same they too would probably find the first 6 hours or so relatively easy due to the number of times they have played the timetable. However AndyG is the only person I know who has played the timetable all the way through, but that was the 1st release. The version that will be uploaded has changed quite considerably. All of the issues that were found in V1.0 have been rectified along with all the platform allocations sonce we managed to get hold of a copy of the 1983 - 1984 Sheffueld station working book. Meld has copied this working book into an Excel document which will be available to anyone who downloads the timetable. This fives you information on platform allocations of each train, as well as train formations & unit diagrams. This document will greatly help you controlling Sheffield station in screen 2. The furtherest I have managed to get playing on my own is between 0900am - 1000am & at that time there were over 30-odd trains on the sim. Bear in mind that was before the 160 trains in the 'specials' part of the timetable & 30-odd additional freight trains were added after obtaining a Freight Train WTT for 1983 - 1984 which covered the Hope Valley line. Hopefully when I meet Meld next on Monday will probabl give you the clearest indication as to when this timetable will be released as he is currently doing some alterarions to the timetable while he waits to come back online. Watch this space.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 19/06/2010 at 17:44 #9715 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Let me try & answer your question Aaron. In the first place I always wanted to do a timetable for Sheffield, not only because I live in the area of the sim, but I always felt Sheffield was an interesting location for both freight & passenger traffic, being an important inter-change on the NE-SW route. What determined the year of 1983-1984 being dome was that I managed to get a copy of Section YE WTT for the year 1983-1984 as I already had a Freight WTT Section YJ for the year 1984-1985 & I also had a trip notice for Tinsley yard for 1985, which was the nearest one I could find for the year of rhe timetable. That part was the only part which isn't quite the same year, but I suspect in reality the 1983 - 1984 Trip Notice if there were any changes would be on the number of trip being run, so by using the 1985 ome there would be probably be a few less than the 1983 - 1984 one. On the passenger workings Sheffield at that time was ll DMUs, now these tend to have longer layovers at Sheffield as opposed to more modern timetables with Sprinters covering all class 2 services. Things with the timetable started to change when Meld made himself known & due to the fact that he had spent alot of time st Sheffield station in his youth (train spotting) he knew alot about certain moves with certain trains at Sheffield station including alot of detail in the way certain Mail trains divideed & attached. Also one of his friends worked as a shunter fo many years at Sheffield station & he was ablt to give alot of information regarding all the trains that shunted at Sheffiled station. I asked Meld the question about obtaining a station working book for Sheffield for the year 1983-1984. After speaking to his friend he managed to obtain a copy & this was scanned for us. Meld subsequently converted it to an excel document & we completely took the timetable apart & put it back together again using information from it to re-create the movements at Sheffield for that year. What this publication gives you is the booked formation of each train including unit diagrams & the number of coaches each DMU had. As regards to Mail, Newpaper & Postal trains it tells you what formation the vans on the train were in, therfore giving you the total number of vans on the train & what vans on the train were detached or attached & also gives you info on where the vans originated from & where they were destined to. So all in all we have everything covered including several unit moves dutrin the end of the timetable & beginning of the timetable where these movements would go from Sheffield to Tinsley yard for re-fuelling outwards via Mill Race Jn & back via Woodburn Jn & Darnall Sdgs. The units go into Darnall for carriage cleaning. Some of these movements consist of up to 12 cars. Once they arrive at Sheffield they have to be split & shunted from various locations such as US1 & US2 to there allocated platforms.Don't forget there are a number of freight trains booked through Sheffield station during thewhole timetable & like the 'specials' no platfom has been allocated as it would be done by the signallerwhen the train entered the panel & would then be allocated a platform to go through which would not conflict with other trains. All of the 'special' trains with 'Z' headcodes were taken from 'The Chesterfield Observors' website so all the trains he recorded for 1983-1984 have been included, both freight & passenger. Due to the number of tracks actually missing on the 1980s scenario for Sheffield has led to certain trains making there way to Tinsley yard via a run round at Woodhouse Jn Sdgs & Westhorpe. This increases the amount of work to do. Also there is staill an issue to reolve regarding LD movements between Tinsley Yard & Tinsley TMD. I have discussed this several times with Meld as most of the locos at Tinley were serviced & fuelled in the servicing shed in the yard, where there nornmally be between 20-30 locos there waiting next turns of duty after being fuelled & serviced. The only locos going to & from Tinsley TMD would be locos going for exam & or repair & fresh locos being released back to traffic. However as there isn't a location on Screen 6. I orginally timetabled LD moves between Tinsley yard & Tinsley TMD & visa versa, but after 0600 this gets rather manic. There is a constant stream of locos coming off Tinlsey TMD as well as train waiting to leave the east end of the yard & locos returning to the TMD. Believe me that is non stop. It would keep you busy even if you were doing screenn 6 on your own. The MGR workings at Barrow Hill have been altered. All inbound MGRs from Didcot Power Station, Ironbridge Power station & Ridham Dock require a loco change on Staveley Goods )STG) where the train engine goes to Barrow Hill DD & a fresh loco comes off to re-join the train before it goes forward down the Seymour branch. There are MGR services from various quarters going to all the collieries on the panel. Alot of coal trips from doncaster Down Decoy go to various collieries, there are also some 7ZXX's running between Renishaw Park Colliery & Willington Power Station worked by Cl.47/3's outstabled at Barrow Hill. Since obtaining a Section CX & section CY WTT for freight train service for 1983-1984 for trains south of Chesterfield & the Hope valley all those trains have been re-timed & also some 20-30 additional freight trains have been added. There is shunting to be done at Chesterfield as well. Not only do some of the DMUs terminating there require ground frame release to clear the mainline, but there is a mail train that detaches the front van which gets stabled in the yard. Also there is a trip working from Barrow Hill worked by a Cl.08 which also goes in there & some 'Z' freight trains from Peak Forest that go in there also. So even at Chesterfield there is a bit to do at times. The only issue we are having trouble with are the Deepcar trips, which apparently work OK in single player mode, but in multi-player there seems to be a problem with the trains returning from Deepcar to Tinsley. Which may reult in them being completely removed. Watch this space. Aaron in answering your question & giving you examples above, it is not just the denisty of traffic which makes it difficult, it's just the amount of things you need to remember as you work your way through. I know I've said I find the first 6 - 7 hours easy, thats only because I virtually know it off by heart by the number of times I've played it. On screen 2 you need a sticky note with very platform & through line such as DSS, US1, US2 etc so you can put a train ID against them just to keep tabs on whats where. In creating this timetable it was never my intention to make it too difficult for anyone to play. Bearing in mind the fact that alot of trackwork is still missing off this version of Sheffield, whether that will be rectified in future who knows? But I was determined to make it as realistic as possible. With the help of Meld & though his contacts managed to get Sheffield station as near to 100% accuratein the movements that occurred that year. Also lets not forget all the effort AndyG put into this timetable as well. I don't think I ever come across anyone who has managed to rectify so many issues ina timetable in such a short amount of time as what AndyG has done here. I was even having trouble keeping up with it. AndyG has a hell of alot of knowledge & understanding on how a sim interprets the information you type in whilst creating a timetable & as a result his work on this isn't to be under-estimated either. I've even learnt a thing or two from him which I am bearing in mind in future timetables. Talking of future timetables Meld & I are currently writing a timetable based on Gloucester 1988-1989 just as a fill in. Doesn't mean that we have given up on Sheffield though. Whem <eld get his internet connection back can we have a final test session prior to release. He is hopeful that will be at some point next week. Sheffield 1983 - 1984 will be as normal as it gets for that area at that time. Timetable produced today tend to have less shunting & less Trip workings than in the 1980's & 1990's. For those reasons Meld & I will continue producing timetables, but we won't be doing any with sheds (Cl.66's) as this isn't really our scene. Hopefully the wait will be worth while & I for one want to get it released sooner rather than later. Anyway I'll keep everyone updated. Will be seeing Meld again on Monday. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 20/06/2010 at 18:12 #9735 | |
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spfish
56 posts |
Cannot wait, Pascal and Meld (but of course, will have to!). Thanks for all your hard work. I did version 1 through to about 1400hrs when i got fed up with the platform clashes and duplicate headcodes which will be resolved in the next release, and done the early hours a couple of times. Glad to hear it will be released soon.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 20/06/2010 at 19:50 #9737 | |
Meld
1111 posts |
Right I'm only visiting while visiting a relative can confirm that all being well I should be back online full time later this week. I see Pascal has kept the progress reports coming an update from me now. THe frieght and Z's are nearly finished being split into days so you will get the main passenger & mail t/t along with 5 seperate days freight and specials to merge as required All I've got to do is finish the Notes and original station working book edits, so its not far off (subject to a full online test) Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 21/06/2010 at 07:23 #9746 | |
moonraker
370 posts 
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Keep up the good work John & Pascal
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 22/06/2010 at 11:13 #9764 | |
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AndyG
1842 posts |
The GFs work perfectly when used correctly, there is no problem for use with this TT.
I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 22/06/2010 at 15:20 #9767 | |
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Meld
1111 posts |
Just to reitierate what AndyG says above there are no problems with the Chesterfield GF one of the first trains into the T/T is seeded from the sidings and works fine. This has been tested in multiplay as well on a local network just to make sure. Update the daily split freights should be completed over the weekend and hopefully I'll be back, able to host a full test session afterwards. Just need to tweak a couple of ECS moves in Sheffield Station around noon Apologies for the blank posts for some reason when I post to the shoutbox while replying here the goddam thing puts a blank post in here instead of the message in the shoutbox grrrrr Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 22/06/2010 at 20:49 #9773 | |
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officer dibble
409 posts |
Aaron, GFs at Chesterfield working OK for me on my version of Sheffield.
When in doubt - Contingency plan 2A. Someone didn't buy the milk - 2A. Someone sneezed at Swansea - 2A. A driver complains the cab is too cold - 2A. Unable to operate a HEx service 4 vice 8 - 2A. Points failure at Ipswich - 2A. Landslip at Pitlochry - 2A Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 22/06/2010 at 22:50 #9775 | |
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JamesN
1609 posts
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There is a bug whereby when you 'give' both GFs, they lock each other and you can't regain control of either. I believe this is the case in real life too, hence why it was simulated thus. However, as it is physically impossible for both to be in use by trains at the same time, there is no need to push both. You as a host just need to make sure your clients don't and are saving regularly. At the end of the day these disruptions/mistakes can happen on any game, not just one playing this TT.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 23/06/2010 at 04:32 #9777 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
JamesN said:I believe this is the case in real life too, hence why it was simulated thus.SimSig aims for accuracy, including things that the real signallers have to think about. I would put this ground frame issue in that category, and remember not to do it! Not a bug, just foolish real-life interlocking. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 23/06/2010 at 09:57 #9784 | |
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officer dibble
409 posts |
Aaron said:Dibbs-Thanks for taking an interest. The art of computer testing is to test all combinations.Aaron, I bow to your infinite wisdom & superior knowledge. I hadnt tested both at once, as I wouldnt need to use both at once. Apologies. When in doubt - Contingency plan 2A. Someone didn't buy the milk - 2A. Someone sneezed at Swansea - 2A. A driver complains the cab is too cold - 2A. Unable to operate a HEx service 4 vice 8 - 2A. Points failure at Ipswich - 2A. Landslip at Pitlochry - 2A Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 24/06/2010 at 00:58 #9796 | |
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UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
OK so I think we've all got the message now that it isn't actually bug - certainly news to me. If anyone is really worried about hosting this timetable (or any Sheffield timetable) online and risking someone accidentally/maliciously activating both ground frames at the same time then just remember that Sheffield does has the auto save feature "Make snapshot every xxx minutes" available under the Control tab in F3 Options. Simply tick the check box for it and then specify an amount of minutes between each automatic save (I believe it is a minimum of 10 minutes and a maximum of 120 minutes (2 hours)) then if both ground frames do end up being activated you can just revert back to the previous save and hey presto - you don't even have to remember to save it. OK so loading that save would result in all clients being disconnected but they can just reconnect seconds later (so ensure you let them know first) then you can carry on from there. If it happens again within a short time after restarting then you might like to consider some other options, perhaps this may involve removing any observers or perhaps, a slightly less unfair approach, a "Sin Bin" (this is something that I've noticed a few hosts have done lately) where-by the hosting is put on hold for an appropriate amount of time, perhaps 10 - 15 minutes. If it happens yet again then, personally, I would either switch to a different simulation or cancel the hosting all together. Then again reloading the save again and again isn't too hard to do and you'd probably lose no more than 5 minutes of actual gaming time (2 minutes to reload the save and then 3 minutes to wait for everyone to reconnect) for each reload and yes, after a couple of times it would get a bit annoying, but the more you have to do it the more practise you get so the faster you can do it again later. I certainly can't see any major flaws in this idea and I hope it'll help someone. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 24/06/2010 at 15:39 #9800 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
I see there's been some heavy traffic on this thread whilst I have been offline since Monday. But back today. Pay as You Go dongle ran out of credit. Interesting comment you make Aaron regarding GF's. However I can't say I have ever had any problems with them, but Sheffield 1983-1984 timetable is a completely different animal when you compare it to the rest. Having said that we aren't going to find out until we do a full online test & that depends when Meld is back online. Last time I saw him on Monday he was hoping to be back on Wednesday. As I have just returned online not too sure whether John has been re-connected. Going back to what you say Aaron. I hear what you say, however I'm a stickler for detail & accuracy & several trains used the Chesterfield Sdgs during 1983-1984 & if I was going to give my honest opinion there are too many trains to be removed in order not to use the GF's. However I don't want to release the timetable & as a result several people have an issue with the GF's at Chesterfield & we end up with a number of posts on the forum, that in my opinion would spoil the timetable also. I am pleased to see AndyG has stated he can't see an issue with the timetable running on the current version of Sheffield. AndyG to me in the short time I have dealt with him, is like Yoda in the Star Wars films regarding his knowledge on how timetables work wityh the program that runs the sim.(No offence Andy by the way). If I knew as much as he does I'd be laughing. Hence Andy being a very important person in the testing process. I know Meld is writing a narrative for this timetable regarding the Passenger & parcels side of the timetable. The freight side is my responsibility as most of my railway career was on the freight operations side & being a Regional Loco controller for 12 years also allows me to know how traction units were allocated to diagrams & how many TMD's functioned. My main aim with this timetable & it has been the thing I have kept in the back of my mind throughout this timetables manufacture was to have the most realistic timetable produced for a certain year to have been created for a sim. When it is released I would say we are in the 90% range of it being accurate, with the limitations of the track layout for the 1980's scenario. This situation may well improve once a scrolling version of Sheffield is released. I am as keen to get this released as soon as posible as I am currently working on a Gloucester 1988-1989 timetable & a peterborough 1995-1996 timetable. Work is progressing on these 2 whilst awaiting John's return to host a full session on Sheffield. All the best laid plans fall apart. If John hadn't had this problem re-coonnecting to the internet, then I suspect Sheffield 1983-1984 timetable would have been released by now. If anyone knows if John is re-connected I would be keen to know? Many thanks to all of your continued interest in this timetable.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 24/06/2010 at 21:57 #9806 | |
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GoochyB
222 posts |
58050 said:This situation may well improve once a scrolling version of Sheffield is released. I think Kurt once said that Sheffield will remain paged, as the layout was too complicated to connect up into a single scrolly. Although of course you should never say never..... Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 25/06/2010 at 07:15 #9811 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Yes I remember him saying that the trackwork was too complicated to do a scrolly version of Sheffield. However, I thought whilst talking to him at the Derby meet he told me that he was working on a way round that problem & eventually one would be done. Who knows, we'll just have to wait & see.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 21/07/2010 at 11:34 #10134 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
may i be so bold as to ask for a progress report?
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 21/07/2010 at 12:22 #10135 | |
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58050
2659 posts |
Indeed you may Ozzy. Several weeks ago Meld hosted a final test of this timetable with the addition of the 'specials' part of the timetable for the first time. AndyG, Derbybest & myself along with several others during the course of the day which started at 1300 approx & finished around 2330. We covered between 0000 - 1730 sim time. All issues to sort out were noted & some have been dealt with. It was the intention to finish the test off over the weekend. But that never happened. Meld then suffered alot of connection problems due to a fault at the exchange, then he ended up in hospital for a week. After speaking to him last weekend I staed that to keep continuity with what weneeded to do we would have to wait until he is ready to finish off the test. the timetable will be split into several sections ready for it's final release. In so much as the Freight timetable will be split into 5 separate sections. One for each day of the week. So you will need to merge which ever day you want to run with the Passenger & parcels part of the timetable. Meld is sorting the separation of the freight timetable out. Once he has finished with whatever else he needs to do then I will receive the timetable to add a narration about the freight traffic as Meld has written a narration about the passenger & parcels traffic. Also included will be a copy of the 1983-1984 Sheffield Station Working Book to help people with the running of the timetable. To run this timetable on your own you will need to run it at the slowest speed after 0700am because of the intensity of trains, so be warned. this timetable is better played as a multi-player. Anyway if the issues listed hadn't happened then I suspect that the timetable would now have been released. Further more I think AndyG has still got a few issues to reolve. But can't really say anymore than this until such time as Meld re-hosts & we finish off the final test. Thank you for being patient as I am eager to get this one released asap. Will give you another updated once we have finished the final test.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 21/07/2010 at 18:29 #10143 | |
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ozzyd9001
131 posts |
thank you for all your hard work my appitite is well wetted and carnt wait for the fun to beging. yours paul Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 30/07/2010 at 19:25 #10347 | |
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Meld
1111 posts |
A quick update from my side. As far as I can see there isn't much more in the editing department to do, apart from maybe a little tweaking of some of the special services and any missing rules - I've mailed Pascal the latest version, which is 6 timetables. The main timetable that contains Passenger & Freight weighing in at 835 services and the 5 additional daily timetables, Mon - Fri (M140-T188-W190-Th228-F202 additional services), Anyone of these additional timetables is to be merged into the main timetable to give a particular full days service. Or would you prefer full timetables for each day ???? Now for the Documentation Please tell me what sort info you want in the ReadMe, its the first time I've produced on and would like to get it right first time. There is a copy of the station working book, in Excel format, which also includes a platform occupancy sheet. Would the members like a scan of the Station working book as well (40+ A4 pages from memory) ?? What locations would you like simplifiers for ? etc. Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply |
| Sheffield 1983-1984 31/07/2010 at 08:33 #10353 | |
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moonraker
370 posts
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I'd prefer full timetables for each day really John.
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| Sheffield 1983-1984 31/07/2010 at 11:48 #10357 | |
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officer dibble
409 posts |
John, superb work, and have enjoyed the test sessions. Regarding simplifiers for locations on the sim, might I suggest but 3? 1) Chesterfield, 2) Sheffield 3) Aldwarke Junction. A scanned copy to accompany the excel spreadsheet of the SWB may also be an excellent tool, particularly if it is annotated with what forms what & the shunt moves also required. Paul When in doubt - Contingency plan 2A. Someone didn't buy the milk - 2A. Someone sneezed at Swansea - 2A. A driver complains the cab is too cold - 2A. Unable to operate a HEx service 4 vice 8 - 2A. Points failure at Ipswich - 2A. Landslip at Pitlochry - 2A Log in to reply |
