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| Calling Locations and Drivers 24/07/2010 at 20:35 #1502 | |
ajax103
1120 posts |
One thing which would make SimSig that much better is a simple improvement to the telephone feature, now to explain I will give some answers. Say there's a train stood at a signal with the route already set BUT you need to take the signal back, before doing so it would be good if you could place a call to the specific train and advise the driver of your pending actions and they should give you a answer. The same goes for early running trains, there's been plenty of times when I've had a early running freight in Edinburgh where the train is booked to stop in a loop for a period of time but the driver usually rings up as a express is approaching saying he's ready to go, if it's a simple move like into a yard or siding from a platform, it would be nice to call up the driver and ask if they're ready for the move using the same options as the driver does when they want to go early. With the depots/yards in Peterborough/Kings Cross for example it would be nice if they wanted to submit a early running train if they could call you and ask for permission very much like the early running freights do and it would work in reverse if the signaller wanted to put a train into the yard which was running early. It seems so very simple, but is it possible? Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 24/07/2010 at 20:35 #10193 | |
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ajax103
1120 posts |
One thing which would make SimSig that much better is a simple improvement to the telephone feature, now to explain I will give some answers. Say there's a train stood at a signal with the route already set BUT you need to take the signal back, before doing so it would be good if you could place a call to the specific train and advise the driver of your pending actions and they should give you a answer. The same goes for early running trains, there's been plenty of times when I've had a early running freight in Edinburgh where the train is booked to stop in a loop for a period of time but the driver usually rings up as a express is approaching saying he's ready to go, if it's a simple move like into a yard or siding from a platform, it would be nice to call up the driver and ask if they're ready for the move using the same options as the driver does when they want to go early. With the depots/yards in Peterborough/Kings Cross for example it would be nice if they wanted to submit a early running train if they could call you and ask for permission very much like the early running freights do and it would work in reverse if the signaller wanted to put a train into the yard which was running early. It seems so very simple, but is it possible? Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 01:11 #10195 | |
UKTrainMan
1803 posts |
Your first suggestion first - How are you hoping to speak to the driver? At some stations the platform is long enough for 8-cars, a 6-car train should stop at the 6-car mark whilst a 3-car train should stop at the 3-car mark but in either case the starter signal may be at the far end of the platform or beyond it whilst the 6-car and 3-car markers are nearer the other end of the platform. The Signal Post Telephone ("SPT" is at the signal, so how does the driver know the phone is ringing? The only time I can think of that he would know or be aware it is ringing would be as he is departing but that would mean he would have to slap on the brakes, climb out of the cab, walk to the phone (possibly via the cess/along the ballast and up the platform ramp) just to answer it but I'd wonder if that is even allowed (especially the "slapping on" of the brakes!). Of-course if it were raining the driver may not have his window open at-all and the heavier the rain the noisier it sounds, therefore he is unlikely to hear the phone ringing anyway. As with setting a wrong route, you have to take responsibility for it, so if you've pulled off a signal too early then....err......tough! That said, there may well be some kind of radio system for the train (i.e: NRN) and some way of the signaller getting an NRN radio message out to said train but does it really happen that the signaller would contact a train over the NRN radio message to drop the route like that - is that an allowed procedure? Of course I'm already aware that in a serious emergency the route could be dropped anyway and the driver would expect it was for emergency reasons but I'd be doubtful if it was allowed for any other reasons.Moving on-wards to the subject of early running trains. During the meet earlier today (well, yesterday now) I had an early running Class 6 freight train on NEScot and routed it into Perth P4 then the driver called me up saying he was waiting at the red signal, the final option given was "Wait until booked xx:xx before calling back" or something like that (I forget the exact time) - are you sure you haven't overlooked this option within the telephone call options? It may be the case that some simulations are coded for that option whilst some are not or it may be the case that only freight trains can be told to wait until their booked time, but I'd find it hard to believe if you were not offered that option in Edinburgh as I was offered it on NEScot. Onto your final point. SimSig should be considered a highly accurate representation of a real signal box and the real working procedures/practices. As such, if a depot or yard wouldn't call the signaller up for real in regards to a train then I wouldn't expect them to do it in SimSig either. Anyway, on SimSig you are the signaller so it is up to you to correctly regulate a train, especially if it is early! If that means looking at F4 to make sure that holding the train there will not cause any problems or delays with any other trains then do so. Let us Imagine an early ECS train has entered at Hornsey Up Sidings, it would (well, it should) be listed in the WTT so using F4 is pretty much the same thing as flicking through the WTT to check for any potential conflicts. Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 04:31 #10196 | |
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John
884 posts |
I take the point about freight being presented early from yards. It would be nice if the shunter / neighbouring signal box could ring to ask permission to send a train early rather than to have it just appear at the exit signal / fringe. In the Swindon/Didcot sim it's fairly common for Oxford PSB to phone up asking if they should send freight early or hold it to time. And on the flip side, the Trent sim requires the Stapleford and Sandiacre signaller to request slots from Totton Yard, slots which, more often than not, will not be granted if the train is running early. The SwinDid sim is a constant source of irritation for me, as it is all too common for freight to appear 20+ early from Reading only for an 'on time' class 1 to appear right behind it, which is then the best part of 10 minutes late by the time it reaches Oxford. If Oxford PSB can find the common courtesy to ask permission first, I don't see any reason why Reading can't.
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 07:24 #10197 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
UKTM - Your first paragraph can be solved by three letters: CSR. Cab Secure Radio. USER said: That said, there may well be some kind of radio system for the train (i.e: NRN) and some way of the signaller getting an NRN radio message out to said train but does it really happen that the signaller would contact a train over the NRN radio message to drop the route like that - is that an allowed procedure? Of course I'm already aware that in a serious emergency the route could be dropped anyway and the driver would expect it was for emergency reasons but I'd be doubtful if it was allowed for any other reasons. As long as the driver is informed of the signallers actions it is perfectly reasonable to put a peg back. Otherwise it's a COA and a Cat C (?) SPAD if the driver passes the signal. I know Ajax is a railwayman, so it's unlikely that he would suggest something that doesn't reflect real life practices. USER said: As with setting a wrong route, you have to take responsibility for it, so if you've pulled off a signal too early then....err......tough Yes, but you can always put the signal back if the driver knows what you are going to do. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 09:55 #10199 | |
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ajax103
1120 posts |
ralphjwchadkirk said:UKTM - Your first paragraph can be solved by three letters: CSR. Cab Secure Radio.Thank you, CSR can be used as a alternative to the SPT and does on a regular basis ie you could place a call to 1E27 advising that due to a problem ahead of him that he will be running at reduced speed though the affected area rather then just stopping him at a signal and letting him ring in. If a driver passes a signal which changes before him for whatever reason then it does depend on the circumstances as it could be a Cat A SPAD to a CAT C SPAD. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 10:10 #10200 | |
lazzer
635 posts |
USER said:That said, there may well be some kind of radio system for the train (i.e: NRN) and some way of the signaller getting an NRN radio message out to said train but does it really happen that the signaller would contact a train over the NRN radio message to drop the route like that - is that an allowed procedure? Of course I'm already aware that in a serious emergency the route could be dropped anyway and the driver would expect it was for emergency reasons but I'd be doubtful if it was allowed for any other reasons.As an HST driver, we use NRN radios in our cabs, and it is quite normal to hear Network Rail make a radio broadcast to the driver of a specific train asking him to bring his train to a stand and contact the signaller. The NRN will make a horrible beeping noise, and through the static you'll hear "This is a Network Rail broadcast for the driver of 1A01 in the wherever area. Please respond, over", to which you would then pick up the handset, press the button and say you were receiving the message. They would then say something like "Hello driver of 1A01, could you please bring your train to a stand and contact the controlling signaller". Note, this is the only time you can use the NRN on the move. I've had it myself, where I was asked to stop and contact the signaller to be told there were kids trespassing on the line ahead. So I suppose the signaller contacting the driver of a train directly in Simsig would be the same sort of thing as NR contacting him and telling him to call the signaller. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 13:08 #10207 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
The issue is when trains do not have radio equipment fitted. I had issues contacting a set of empties who was told to "Wait for Signal" due to train in front, and they should be moving shortly, but they hadn't called back 15 minutes later! (I had new instructions to give him regarding OHL). CSR is not used on the NLL, and apparently the 378's don't have NRN in operation! And the GSM-R that is fitted is only used on the ELL, so I was stuffed. it took 25 mins before the driver decided to phone in again. It would have been 5 mins if they had sorted out some kind of radio system!
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 25/07/2010 at 14:20 #10210 | |
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Noisynoel
989 posts |
That seems odd as a train cannot be in servcie without an operational radio (That is, one that can recieve emergency broadcasts as a minimum). If they are not fitted with CSR or NRN then they should be carrying mobile NRN's. I shall make some enquiries tomorrow, I assume it was a 378
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 26/07/2010 at 00:45 #10220 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
yes noel. and that is what we were told by control. it was a few weeks ago at least, maybe a month...
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 26/07/2010 at 10:45 #10224 | |
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kbarber
1743 posts |
Radio? Phone? In my day we had to wait for t'secondman to *walk* to the box. Folk these days don't know they're born! [/Monty Python Yorkshire accent] Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 26/07/2010 at 20:23 #10237 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
kbarber said:Radio?Ah, the joys being the bobby in the box who hasn't just had to walk through the rain for a mile! As an interesting side note, the SVR are planning to implement rule changes to allow the use of mobile phones in such incidents. In some cases, the rules allow "communication with ... by any means possible", but some require a walk back to station/signalbox - and it would obviously be much safer (both operationally and for the persons involved) if the Driver/Fireman/Other could phone up during some sort of incident rather than, for example, walking a mile back across Victoria Bridge at night in heavy rain. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 26/07/2010 at 20:44 #10238 | |
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Adrian the Rock
111 posts |
kbarber said:Radio? Luxury! We ad t'drink half a cup o' Leclanche cell acid, go to work 29 hours a day in t'signalbox, and pay stationmaster for permission t'come t'work. An if we so much as breathed, t'District Inspector would kill us and dance up and down on our graves singing Hallelujah. And you try telling that t'young folk of today, and they won't believe you... 
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 31/07/2010 at 18:37 #10376 | |
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GB
64 posts |
OK a couple of points if I may.... 1) If a signaller throws back a signal in front of a train (and the train passes it) for a reason other than an emergency then it is classed as a "Cat B" spad, the same catagory is used for equipment failures 2) It is perfectly reasonable for a signaller to phone a yard and ask if train XXXX is ready or near to ready (particularly if he is expecting it soon or it has not yet rung out), it gives him a better overall picture and helps him to make regulating decisions. It is also standard that a yard may phone the signaller to either ask if they can accept a train up early or to enquire as to the location of a specific train destined for the yard. 3) If a signaller has set a route, he should not pull it up if it will cause the driver to see a COA without good reason. Changing your mind about the order of your regulation does not constitute good reason. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 31/07/2010 at 18:47 #10378 | |
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GB
64 posts |
Quote:Thank you, CSR can be used as a alternative to the SPT and does on a regular basis ie you could place a call to 1E27 advising that due to a problem ahead of him that he will be running at reduced speed though the affected area rather then just stopping him at a signal and letting him ring in.This is not standard practice. Drivers are not permitted to use the CSR while the train is in motion unless its an emergency. The driver would first be required to come to a stand before phoning in and as a signaller, you shouldn't use the CSR to call a specific train while its on the move to give it safety critical instructions, though general broadcasts are acceptable. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 31/07/2010 at 19:18 #10383 | |
DazrahT
47 posts |
GB said:Quote:Hmm, not the way I read the rulesThank you, CSR can be used as a alternative to the SPT and does on a regular basis ie you could place a call to 1E27 advising that due to a problem ahead of him that he will be running at reduced speed though the affected area rather then just stopping him at a signal and letting him ring in.This is not standard practice. Drivers are not permitted to use the CSR while the train is in motion unless its an emergency. The driver would first be required to come to a stand before phoning in and as a signaller, you shouldn't use the CSR to call a specific train while its on the move to give it safety critical instructions, though general broadcasts are acceptable. TW1 3.3 Page 18 a) Using the train radio system safely You must not use the radio when the train is moving if you might become distracted and put the train in danger. The words in there are if you might, so quite simple, don't become distracted or put the train in danger. Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 31/07/2010 at 20:06 #10385 | |
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GB
64 posts |
You don't think recieving and replying to a safety critical instruction would be distracting? Perhaps I should have been more specific with the term "use" as it is quite broad.
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| Calling Locations and Drivers 03/08/2010 at 19:34 #10438 | |
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deanbean10
36 posts |
ralphjwchadkirk said:CSR. Cab Secure Radio aj in some places its GSM-R Log in to reply |
| Calling Locations and Drivers 05/08/2010 at 20:31 #10491 | |
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ralphjwchadkirk
275 posts |
CSR is currently the national standard.
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