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New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 17:54 #104047 | |
Phil-jmw
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Ar88 in post 104044 said:Danny252 in post 104043 said:The section signal is cleared, it's the IB Home that's still at Danger.KymriskaDraken in post 104040 said:Surely you shouldn't get the distant until the section signal is cleared?!Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:The very first photo Google pulls up shows 20/19/17 reversed with 16 normal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43709405@N07/16773482163When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use.I reported this during testing but the developer said it was correct. Raised on mantis again by another user (18850). Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Ar88 |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 17:54 #104048 | |
headshot119
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Danny252 in post 104043 said:And the block shelf indications have the signals "off". "Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 18:55 #104053 | |
Ar88
![]() 310 posts |
Steamer in post 104046 said:Ar88 in post 104044 said:Thank you for clearing that one up - haven't come across this in the real-world yet!Danny252 in post 104043 said:Not if the section signal is an Intermediate Block signal that, by definition, has its own repeater- which is the case here.KymriskaDraken in post 104040 said:Surely you shouldn't get the distant until the section signal is cleared?!Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:The very first photo Google pulls up shows 20/19/17 reversed with 16 normal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43709405@N07/16773482163When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use.I reported this during testing but the developer said it was correct. Raised on mantis again by another user (18850). The Welsh contingent. Aron, or Ar to mates. Also known as 88E or ThatManCalledAr. Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:38 #104063 | |
Noisynoel
![]() 989 posts |
Phil-jmw in post 104010 said:KymriskaDraken in post 104007 said:I don't quite know what's occurred there. it only appears at the moment to be that one section affected. I'm trawling through the copious amount of data involved with the AB working to find where the erroneous digit is (or isn't!!)Sidestick Priority in post 103987 said:Kev,What a great sim, thanks to everyone involved in making it!You don't need to give TOL. Get a Line Clear if you need to clear PF21, and when the train has reversed cancel the route from PF21 and when it times out you can cancel the Line Clear with the Cancel button on the block instrument. Once the block is at TOL you can't cancel it until a train has passed through the section. Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Phil-jmw |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:40 #104064 | |
Noisynoel
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Andrew G in post 104011 said:KymriskaDraken in post 104007 said:Correct, it does state that. I need to speak to Howard Potter to try and understand what is not working as the original data is his, so he has a better understanding of it than I doSidestick Priority in post 103987 said:That isn't prototypical though.What a great sim, thanks to everyone involved in making it!You don't need to give TOL. Get a Line Clear if you need to clear PF21, and when the train has reversed cancel the route from PF21 and when it times out you can cancel the Line Clear with the Cancel button on the block instrument. Once the block is at TOL you can't cancel it until a train has passed through the section. Noisynoel Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:42 #104065 | |
Noisynoel
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KymriskaDraken in post 104024 said:WesternChampion in post 104019 said:I don't seem to be able to get a route from New Mills South Sig 24 onto the Down Romiley, either to New Mills Sig 3 or the Triangle. If this is not a valid route, is there any other way for 5S05 in the 2009 timetable to reverse at New Mills South Junction, without having to "Pass Signal at Danger"?Mantis 18843. Where the SMEG did that route disappear to! I know it was there as I have routed that very same train several times over that route! Strange. re-instated for next release Route missing. Noisynoel Last edited: 15/12/2017 at 20:44 by Noisynoel Reason: None given Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:43 #104066 | |
Noisynoel
![]() 989 posts |
Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use. Sorted, I misread the data! Noisynoel Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Phil-jmw |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:44 #104068 | |
Noisynoel
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Danny252 in post 104035 said:...and following Phil's comment, the symbol for EE16 is therefore wrong, as it is a colour light. Also sorted Noisynoel Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:45 #104069 | |
Noisynoel
![]() 989 posts |
KymriskaDraken in post 104040 said:Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:Yes, you did, yes I did, apologies, I was wrong ( a normal occurrence according to SWMBO!!).When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use.I reported this during testing but the developer said it was correct. Raised on mantis again by another user (18850). Noisynoel Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 15/12/2017 at 20:50 #104070 | |
Noisynoel
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Steamer in post 104042 said:Excellent simulation, I look forward to purchasing!To be honest, I can't remember. IIRC I originally drew it with a split near HG29 with the other side of the split in the top left corner. I done it like that originally to make it fit. then at some later stage thhe two sections seemed to get joined up. I shall have a look and see if I can change it to be more realistic Noisynoel Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Steamer, Ginger |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 11:02 #104097 | |
kbarber
![]() 1723 posts |
Ar88 in post 104053 said:Steamer in post 104046 said:An IB would often be a replacement for a signalbox. Before the days of track circuits & power operation, signalboxes would sometimes be provided simply to break up a block section, just a home & distant in each direction. Later, boxes that originally had sidings etc might be reduced to that sort of status (especially following Beeching). Eventually the cost of staffing such a box would exceed the cost of installing & maintaining the necessary track circuits, so the 'break section' box would be replaced by an Intermediate Block Home (and its distant) on each line. Normal configuration was for the IBH and IBD to be worked by one lever (usual colour was red over yellow, with the colours separated by a white band) at the box in rear. The reason for working it from the rear box was that track circuits only needed to extend to a point 400 yards beyond the IB, rather than all through the section.Ar88 in post 104044 said:Thank you for clearing that one up - haven't come across this in the real-world yet!Danny252 in post 104043 said:Not if the section signal is an Intermediate Block signal that, by definition, has its own repeater- which is the case here.KymriskaDraken in post 104040 said:Surely you shouldn't get the distant until the section signal is cleared?!Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:The very first photo Google pulls up shows 20/19/17 reversed with 16 normal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43709405@N07/16773482163When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use.I reported this during testing but the developer said it was correct. Raised on mantis again by another user (18850). The length between the (original) section signal and the IBH is known as the Intermediate Block Section. When it and the 400yd overlap are clear, the original signals can be cleared as if the train had been accepted up to the IB; because the IBH has its own distant at full braking distance, there's no restriction on clearing the distant at the operating box. In operation, signals would be cleared as far as the IB when TES was received from the box in rear, and the train will then be offered forward, the IB cleared and TES given when it is passing the controlling box. The 1960 Sectional Appendix shows a signalbox at Norman's Bank, 1 mile 482 yards from Earle's Sidings and 2 miles 1336 yards from Edale. That, I suspect, is what was replaced by EE16; I strongly suspect there is a corresponding one on the down, controlled by Earle's Sidings. Last edited: 16/12/2017 at 11:04 by kbarber Reason: typos Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 11:13 #104098 | |
jc92
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kbarber in post 104097 said:Ar88 in post 104053 said:Correct. Theres an IB on the up and down that replaced normans bank (ive never seen a photo but i'm led to believe it was a minimal 4 lever break section box)Steamer in post 104046 said:An IB would often be a replacement for a signalbox. Before the days of track circuits & power operation, signalboxes would sometimes be provided simply to break up a block section, just a home & distant in each direction. Later, boxes that originally had sidings etc might be reduced to that sort of status (especially following Beeching). Eventually the cost of staffing such a box would exceed the cost of installing & maintaining the necessary track circuits, so the 'break section' box would be replaced by an Intermediate Block Home (and its distant) on each line. Normal configuration was for the IBH and IBD to be worked by one lever (usual colour was red over yellow, with the colours separated by a white band) at the box in rear. The reason for working it from the rear box was that track circuits only needed to extend to a point 400 yards beyond the IB, rather than all through the section.Ar88 in post 104044 said:Thank you for clearing that one up - haven't come across this in the real-world yet!Danny252 in post 104043 said:Not if the section signal is an Intermediate Block signal that, by definition, has its own repeater- which is the case here.KymriskaDraken in post 104040 said:Surely you shouldn't get the distant until the section signal is cleared?!Phil-jmw in post 104032 said:The very first photo Google pulls up shows 20/19/17 reversed with 16 normal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/43709405@N07/16773482163When clearing the Up line signals at Edale EE19 Up Home and EE17 Up Section signal remain at Danger after routes have been set until EE16 is cleared, but EE16 is an IB Home signal, so it should be possible to clear EE19 and EE17 with EE16 still at Danger otherwise the IB section is of no use.I reported this during testing but the developer said it was correct. Raised on mantis again by another user (18850). "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 11:18 #104099 | |
Danny252
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kbarber in post 104097 said:The 1960 Sectional Appendix shows a signalbox at Norman's Bank, 1 mile 482 yards from Earle's Sidings and 2 miles 1336 yards from Edale. That, I suspect, is what was replaced by EE16; I strongly suspect there is a corresponding one on the down, controlled by Earle's Sidings.Correct, you win your prize of absolutely nothing! Similarly there are IBs the other side of Earles Sidings (as seen on the Sheffield sim). As an aside, I don't think the apostrophe has ever been present on the railway side of things, despite serving G&T Earle's Cement Works. Edit: Apostrophe deleted in the 1970s, apparently: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingythewingy/9079355682 On another note, whilst trawling through various photos of the boxes in relation to queries, I've noticed they all seem to include a photo of the adjacent boxes' diagrams pinned to the block shelf - probably a surprisingly useful feature that I've never seen elsewhere. Last edited: 16/12/2017 at 11:19 by Danny252 Reason: Apostrophes Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 11:34 #104102 | |
Danny252
![]() 1461 posts |
I've noticed that a few of the track circuits around Peak Forest/Great Rocks display oddly, highlighting several areas of the TC when a train is passing over a different piece of the track circuit. See attached screenshot for an example - there's three red pieces at the borders with the non-TC'ed tracks. In addition to TGR1423, I've seen it on TPF4244 (Peak Forest Up Sdgs). I can't find any mention of this unusual behaviour in the manual - is it intentional?
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 16/12/2017 at 11:35 by Danny252 Reason: None given Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 11:59 #104106 | |
kbarber
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jc92 in post 104017 said:KymriskaDraken in post 104007 said:Block controls varied hugely. But it would always be possible, in some way, to cancel either a LC or a TOL.Sidestick Priority in post 103987 said:Is that correct though? I would have thought welwyn would be provided to cancel trains off? You should be able to.What a great sim, thanks to everyone involved in making it!You don't need to give TOL. Get a Line Clear if you need to clear PF21, and when the train has reversed cancel the route from PF21 and when it times out you can cancel the Line Clear with the Cancel button on the block instrument. Once the block is at TOL you can't cancel it until a train has passed through the section. Most of these lines were Midland Railway, with the rest being LNWR. Both had simple block instruments, originally without even Line Clear releases on section signals and with nothing to prevent a signalman clearing the block and giving a fresh LC even with a train in section. Likewise, the plain vanilla version of the BR standard 'penguin' block had no controls whatsoever. The LNW started fitting LC releases ('Northampton' locks) sometime after 1910. I've no idea how far the programme got, though; I suspect the Hazel Grove - Buxton line may not have been done before the 1960s or perhaps even later (Upper Holloway, on the Gospel Oak - Barking line, didn't get LC releases until the spring of 1979). Provision of Welwyn Control was entirely independent of that and may have happened before, after, or simultaneously. (It might not even have happened yet; I suspect there are still a few places without Welwyn Control.) The MR introduced its Rotary Interlocking Block in about 1913 but installation was slow and the programme never completed. On the main line out of London, the limit of Rotary Block working was St Albans South. I suspect the Settle & Carlisle may have been upgraded relatively early, given the difficulties of working that line (and its reputation for accidents, albeit none due to block issues). I have no idea how much of the MR system around Manchester and Sheffield was Rotary Block; if anyone has interior photos showing old-fashioned wooden block instruments in these boxes, look for a large circular brass plate on the front of each 'pegging' instrument. It was called Rotary interlocking Block because the commutator could normally only be turned in the clockwise direction. For 'Normal' it stood at the 12 o'clock position and was turned to 4 o'clock to give Line Clear, from which it could not be returned to Normal. There were 'one-pull' LC releases on section signals, and interlinking to ensure home and distant were at danger/caution before LC could be given (there was also sequential interlocking in the lever frame). On receiving TES, the commutator was turned to the 8 o'clock position, where it became completely locked - it could be turned neither forward nor back. When the train passed the box, it operated a treadle (later a track circuit would be the control) which released the lock and allowed the instrument to be advanced to Normal. To block back inside, a button was provided which allowed the commutator to be turned backwards to the 9 o'clock position, at which point the instrument showed TOL; there was no release associated with that, so the instrument could be returned to Normal at any time. Rotary Block required a co-operative release from LC; there was a LC Cancel button on both the pegging and non-pegging instruemnts and both signalmen had to operate their buttons on the relevant instrument, after which it was possible to return the commutator in the wrong direction to 'Normal'. If a release from TOL was required, the pegging instrument had a sealed release - a small glass panel (with a pro-numbered, signed & dated label stuck on the rear) that had to be broken to access the release button; when that was pressed, the commutator could be advanced to Normal, but of course an entry was required in the Train Register to account for the broken glass, and the S&T had to be called to replace it ASAP. It follows that Rotary Block would never be provided where shunting into forward section was authorised, nor at other locations where such movements were required. Welwyn Control was a 1930s development, first adopted on the LNER and on other lines after 1948; as I say, extension was quite slow. I suspect it may not have been provided at all on lines used principally by freight trains (again, interior photos would confirm - look for the grey drum with a handle on the front, mounted on the face of the block shelf below the relevant instrument). So it is possible that Peak Forest & Great Rocks have no block controls at all, that waiting for a cancellation is not at all accurate. Unfortunately, there is no longer any Rotary Block in operation on the National system (the S&C was its last bastion) but I wouldn't know exactly when it was replaced (if it ever existed) in the Peak District area (I guess soon after 1967 in the Chinley - Great Rocks area, when the through route from Ambergate was closed). Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 12:05 #104107 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
Danny252 in post 104102 said:I've noticed that a few of the track circuits around Peak Forest/Great Rocks display oddly, highlighting several areas of the TC when a train is passing over a different piece of the track circuit. See attached screenshot for an example - there's three red pieces at the borders with the non-TC'ed tracks. In addition to TGR1423, I've seen it on TPF4244 (Peak Forest Up Sdgs). I can't find any mention of this unusual behaviour in the manual - is it intentional?This happens on some other sims as well, so I think it's a core code issue. Kev Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 13:18 #104110 | |
slatteryc
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Hello In the matrix at the top left which lists the boxes and who is controlling them, is "chapel-in-le-firth" correct spelling or not ? Apologies - as the station is "Frith" Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:01 #104112 | |
KymriskaDraken
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slatteryc in post 104110 said:HelloWell spotted. I will pass it on to the developer. Kev Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:06 #104113 | |
Phil-jmw
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I had a bit of congestion at Buxton just now with light engines to and from Great Rocks. To try and allieviate this I ran 0J31 right down to the far end of the run round loop then signalled 0H22 in on top of it. However, 0H22 came to a stand over the points just on the Buxton side of BX22 Signal. I instructed 0H22 to shunt forward but it didn't move, so had to abandon the TT in order for the loco to move and then reinstate the TT when 0H22 was inside clear behind BX45 signal. Is this a bug? Regards, Phil. Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:07 #104114 | |
Danny252
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KymriskaDraken in post 104107 said:Danny252 in post 104102 said:Having done a few seconds more thinking, the areas marked red are those that blink white when a signal is selected. However, there must be some other factor, as it doesn't happen in all cases - e.g. it occurs at Buxton on TBX6 for the "blinker" for BX27, but not BX32 which is on the same TC. A few similar TC/signal combinations on Coventry around the Yard also don't display the bug.I've noticed that a few of the track circuits around Peak Forest/Great Rocks display oddly, highlighting several areas of the TC when a train is passing over a different piece of the track circuit. See attached screenshot for an example - there's three red pieces at the borders with the non-TC'ed tracks. In addition to TGR1423, I've seen it on TPF4244 (Peak Forest Up Sdgs). I can't find any mention of this unusual behaviour in the manual - is it intentional?This happens on some other sims as well, so I think it's a core code issue. Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:28 #104115 | |
clive
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kbarber in post 104097 said:It was also possible for there to be more than one break section box. The usual arrangement was to make the last one an IB but the others became automatics. Some may remember a collision at Seer Green, near Gerrards Cross, in 1981. At that time the signalling on the Down was: GC28 - Gerrards Cross platform starter GC30 - Gerrards Cross advanced starter GC201 - Seer Green home (semi-automatic), with repeater in rear GC202 - Beaconsfield home (automatic); GC201 was three-aspect GC34 - Whitehouse IB Home, with repeater in rear High Wycombe distant (not on the diagram I'm looking at) Similarly in the up direction, after passing High Wycombe's section signal, there was: HW101 - Whitehouse IB Home (the repeater is off the diagram I'm looking at) HW102 - Beaconsfield home (semi-automatic), with repeater in rear HW12 - Seer Green IB Home, with repeater in rear GC1 - Gerrards Cross Distant GC2 - Gerrards Cross Home / GC4 - Gerrards Cross Home routing to platform (GC201 and HW102 were semi-automatic because there was an emergency crossover at Beaconsfield) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:32 #104116 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
Phil-jmw in post 104113 said:I had a bit of congestion at Buxton just now with light engines to and from Great Rocks. To try and allieviate this I ran 0J31 right down to the far end of the run round loop then signalled 0H22 in on top of it. However, 0H22 came to a stand over the points just on the Buxton side of BX22 Signal. I instructed 0H22 to shunt forward but it didn't move, so had to abandon the TT in order for the loco to move and then reinstate the TT when 0H22 was inside clear behind BX45 signal. Is this a bug?The trains are booked to stop for 1 minute at Buxton No 1 Signal Box (roughly where the pointwork is) so perhaps that was the reason. Kev Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 14:37 #104117 | |
KymriskaDraken
![]() 963 posts |
Danny252 in post 104114 said:KymriskaDraken in post 104107 said:I vaguely remember someone saying that it was due to having an unusual draw where the signal cursor is. If the cursor is on normal (with track circuit) track you won't see the red sections. If that track circuit is shown as tramlines you will get the red dot. Possibly one of the developers will be able to explain this better.Danny252 in post 104102 said:Having done a few seconds more thinking, the areas marked red are those that blink white when a signal is selected. However, there must be some other factor, as it doesn't happen in all cases - e.g. it occurs at Buxton on TBX6 for the "blinker" for BX27, but not BX32 which is on the same TC. A few similar TC/signal combinations on Coventry around the Yard also don't display the bug.I've noticed that a few of the track circuits around Peak Forest/Great Rocks display oddly, highlighting several areas of the TC when a train is passing over a different piece of the track circuit. See attached screenshot for an example - there's three red pieces at the borders with the non-TC'ed tracks. In addition to TGR1423, I've seen it on TPF4244 (Peak Forest Up Sdgs). I can't find any mention of this unusual behaviour in the manual - is it intentional?This happens on some other sims as well, so I think it's a core code issue. Kev Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 17:57 #104123 | |
Phil-jmw
![]() 674 posts |
KymriskaDraken in post 104116 said:Phil-jmw in post 104113 said:Ah, that may have been it Kev, and me being too impatient. I'll try to recreate it and see what happens.I had a bit of congestion at Buxton just now with light engines to and from Great Rocks. To try and allieviate this I ran 0J31 right down to the far end of the run round loop then signalled 0H22 in on top of it. However, 0H22 came to a stand over the points just on the Buxton side of BX22 Signal. I instructed 0H22 to shunt forward but it didn't move, so had to abandon the TT in order for the loco to move and then reinstate the TT when 0H22 was inside clear behind BX45 signal. Is this a bug?The trains are booked to stop for 1 minute at Buxton No 1 Signal Box (roughly where the pointwork is) so perhaps that was the reason. Phil. Log in to reply |
New sim - Peak District! 16/12/2017 at 18:03 #104124 | |
Phil-jmw
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Another issue I just found was trying to attach shunt loco PFPT to 7H14 at Peak Forest (1987 TT). Shunt signal PF32 would not clear towards 7H14 standing on the Down line, forcing me to talk PFPT past PF45 and PF32 signals. Phil. Log in to reply |