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| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 24/05/2021 at 12:37 #139702 | |
Splodge
716 posts |
There's plenty of AB, semaphore controlled areas still - Buxton, Chapel-en-le-Frith (and the non-block Norbury Hollow crossing), Plumley and various boxes on the line between Manchester and Sheffield.
There's the right way, the wrong way and the railway. Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 24/05/2021 at 14:34 #139703 | |
elltrain3
369 posts |
I was talking about solely in the London region, outside of London semaphores & AB have multiple strongholds and Greenford is now the only place in London with semaphores on a passenger line and nope Dudding hill, action can wharf & Neasden still exist and are going strong Resident Mock Maker! / "The Out Of Control Host" Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 24/05/2021 at 17:50 #139711 | |
bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
elltrain3 in post 139692 said:Hey all! so with my week off SimSig I decided to make a mock-up of the North London Line which was an exe till they got withdrawn.Bizarre I'll agree but the 'North London' platforms at Stratford are numbered 1 & 2 despite their physical location next to P12 As such they have kept their 'old' numbering from when they were the low level (which is now DLR and numbered 16 & 17) while Jubilee line are P13-15. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/SRA/details.html Bill Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 24/05/2021 at 18:49 #139713 | |
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elltrain3
369 posts |
Ah are they! useful to know, is odd they made them 1&2 being the next numerical platform is quite a walk away!
Resident Mock Maker! / "The Out Of Control Host" Last edited: 24/05/2021 at 18:49 by elltrain3 Reason: didn't read right Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 24/05/2021 at 19:13 #139716 | |
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Albert
1315 posts |
From what I read on http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/stratford_low_level/ the low level station had platforms 1 and 2, which were replaced by these two high-level platforms in 2009. At that time, the Jubilee line platforms 13 and higher had already been in service since 1999, so continuing up from 12 was not possible anyway.
AJP in games Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 08:02 #139720 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
Albert in post 139716 said:From what I read on http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/stratford_low_level/ the low level station had platforms 1 and 2, which were replaced by these two high-level platforms in 2009. At that time, the Jubilee line platforms 13 and higher had already been in service since 1999, so continuing up from 12 was not possible anyway.Stratford platform numbering is a complete dogs' breakfast, largely (I think) because it 'just growed' like Topsy along with the station. I have a feeling there might have been a thorough renumbering in 1949 when the 'Electric' and Central line platforms came into use. If I'm right, that would be the last time the job was properly done. The plan seems to have been, broadly, to number from the entrance side (the southern or Up side, nearest Stratford Broadway) and work north. So as Albert says, the Low Level was 1 & 2, projecting southward from the main station (and, because of the south-to-east chord that used to exist, accessible only by steps down from main line platform level). The 'Main' and 'Local' lines were transposed when Ilford Flyover opened as part of the electrification works, with the Local lines being renamed the 'Electric' (although all lines were in fact wired, in those days at 1500V DC). New platforms were built to give cross-platform interchange with the newly-extended Central Line. There were also bays at the London end for a proposed shuttle to Fenchurch Street (which was also wired as part of the scheme). So P3 served the Westbound Central Line, P4 was a bay at the London End and P5 served the Up Electric. P6 was then for the Eastbound Central Line, P7 was another London-End bay and P8 served the Down Electric. I think I'm right in saying the new Main Lines had no platforms (certainly the one adjacent to the Down Main was not available for use and there was a building right out at the platform edge along part of it), so trains on the Main Line calling at Stratford (very few in those days) had to be put into the loops to serve 9 & 10. (It may be that the mess had started to form even by that date, with 9 having been taken out of use to permit the Mains to be realigned and make room for 3 - 8, with the down loop becoming 10a.) 11 & 12 then went round the corner towards Temple Mills and the Lea Valley. The 1949 signalbox was in the V of the junction, with the Area Inspector's Office in the old station building just behind it. 4 & 7 were the first to go (lifted by the time I knew the place in late 1976, although the complex connections to the Fenchurch Street Single Line were still on the panel in Stratford Box). 4 was then re-used for the DLR. But I've no idea how they number the present pair of high-level DLR platforms. An additional P3 was built for the Olympics, also serving the Westbound Central Line. The rest do make a certain amount of sense in that additional lines were added to the existing numbering and the NLL services kept their old platform numbers. But it means the place is now even more confusing than the old Liverpool Street. Which, I suppose, is an achievement of sorts... Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 08:20 #139721 | |
postal
5264 posts |
kbarber in post 139720 said:I think I'm right in saying the new Main Lines had no platforms (certainly the one adjacent to the Down Main was not available for use and there was a building right out at the platform edge along part of it), so trains on the Main Line calling at Stratford (very few in those days) had to be put into the loops to serve 9 & 10.It is a long time ago so the memory could be at fault but I'm pretty sure that in the early 1960s when I was through Stratford quite regularly as a train-mad youngster the main lines had no platforms but were just through lines between the two halves of the station. How that worked with the electric services (if memory serves a mix of all stations to Gidea Park, all stations to Shenfield and then Stratford > Ilford > Romford and all stations to Southend fasts) is beyond the reach of my recall. “In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe Last edited: 25/05/2021 at 08:25 by postal Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 10:22 #139722 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
According to Wikipedia the new DLR platforms are 4A and 4B (since originally the DLR used the old 4), while the westbound Central is 3 and 3A. It says that in the 1990s the buildings on the far side of 9 were demolished, that side became 9, the old 9 became 10, and the old 10 became 10A. I can certainly remember, in the 1970s and 1980s, catching Southend trains from the loop platforms before there was a 10A. I don't remember the old Liverpool Street being that confusing. It was in order from left to right; you just had to remember to use the footbridge. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 13:48 #139723 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
A couple of images www.gensheet.co.uk/photo2L/Stratford_93.jpg www.gensheet.co.uk/photo2L/37141+203_SF_09-86.jpg Also visible a 'platform 13' - was it ever such ? The 'main loop' platforms were, as said, virtually unused and old P9 was VERY short, I think it only held 5 or 6. I do not recall any 'mains' that called normally, the only use being engineering blocks, as per image, and oddities like charters or the European heading to the NLL. Indeed those platforms were sometimes locked off and I remember telling my GF about how to get to P9 when we went to York. She had a long walk back to our seats which were in the 'Witham' coach. Bill Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 15:53 #139724 | |
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clive
2789 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 139723 said:OS maps as far back as 1938 show that as a double-sided island. I found one picture showing a train standing in it, but I couldn't see any signs or any other evidence. Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 17:53 #139726 | |
GeoffM
6376 posts |
kbarber in post 139720 said:4 & 7 were the first to go (lifted by the time I knew the place in late 1976, although the complex connections to the Fenchurch Street Single Line were still on the panel in Stratford Box).Out of interest, what was complex about it? Also, was the line (I assume you mean to Gas Factory) in regular use? I vaguely recall there was a station on that section. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 25/05/2021 at 20:56 #139728 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
GeoffM in post 139726 said:kbarber in post 139720 said:Yes, there was Bow Road (GER - as opposed to Met & District)4 & 7 were the first to go (lifted by the time I knew the place in late 1976, although the complex connections to the Fenchurch Street Single Line were still on the panel in Stratford Box).Out of interest, what was complex about it? Also, was the line (I assume you mean to Gas Factory) in regular use? I vaguely recall there was a station on that section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_Road_railway_station says closed finally in 1949. Originally trains Fenchurch St - Ilford, the Stratford bay option being proposed for 1949 Still some platforms visible last time I went that way. Bill Log in to reply The following users said thank you: kbarber, GeoffM |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 26/05/2021 at 08:06 #139729 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
postal in post 139721 said:kbarber in post 139720 said:I think I'm right in saying the new Main Lines had no platforms (certainly the one adjacent to the Down Main was not available for use and there was a building right out at the platform edge along part of it), so trains on the Main Line calling at Stratford (very few in those days) had to be put into the loops to serve 9 & 10.It is a long time ago so the memory could be at fault but I'm pretty sure that in the early 1960s when I was through Stratford quite regularly as a train-mad youngster the main lines had no platforms but were just through lines between the two halves of the station. How that worked with the electric services (if memory serves a mix of all stations to Gidea Park, all stations to Shenfield and then Stratford > Ilford > Romford and all stations to Southend fasts) is beyond the reach of my recall. The Gideas, Shenfields and Southends all ran on the Electric lines. In Stratford Box the 'E' line signals would all run automatically if all the straight routes through the area were called (there were small lunar visuals on the panel to show which lines were in auto). I have a feeling the mains could run auto likewise, which meant the peaks were - ironically - probably the signalmen's quietest time (not so for the poor booking boy, of course). Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, bill_gensheet |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 26/05/2021 at 08:07 #139730 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
clive in post 139724 said:bill_gensheet in post 139723 said:I'm pretty certain that was a goods line after the 1949 resignalling.OS maps as far back as 1938 show that as a double-sided island. I found one picture showing a train standing in it, but I couldn't see any signs or any other evidence. Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 26/05/2021 at 08:15 #139731 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
GeoffM in post 139726 said:kbarber in post 139720 said:As I recall (we're talking over 40 years ago here, so please excuse my poor brain cell), both bays had access to the Single Line and to both the up and down E, with both E lines also having connections to the Single Line.4 & 7 were the first to go (lifted by the time I knew the place in late 1976, although the complex connections to the Fenchurch Street Single Line were still on the panel in Stratford Box).Out of interest, what was complex about it? Also, was the line (I assume you mean to Gas Factory) in regular use? I vaguely recall there was a station on that section. I don't think the Fenchurch Street shuttle lasted that long, though I have seen a photo of a unit (the type that became class 306 after conversion to AC) at Fenchurch. The link to Gas Factory was used fairly regularly for stock transfers, mainly to & from Ilford Car Sheds for heavy maintenance beyond the capacity of East Ham. I've an idea the Single Line - which also had all-ways connections to the E lines at Bow Junction - was used occasionally as a 'get out of jail free' card when things were getting interesting for some reason. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: GeoffM |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 26/05/2021 at 10:34 #139732 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
'KB can you expand on 'single line' ? I thought that the Bow - Gas Factory was double up to the 80's, and Bow Jn was a simple double lead - or do you refer to another single line ? Going further back ..... 25 inch maps resolve to track level. Bow Jn 1913 https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194800 Stratford station(s) 1913 https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194779 This looks to me like: 4 tracks from Liverpool St as now 'main 4', slow pair north of main pair At Bow Jn two tracks come in, but carry on running *south* of the 'main 4' lines. Call it 'south slow' pair. (now, it is 2 slow/ECS/CBG lines *north* of the 4 mains) Constrained to 6 tracks over the various bits of River Lea as now. (DLR was on a new bridge, changed again with XR) At Western Jn, 2 then 4 tracks diverge to the north of the 'main 4', junction for Carpenters Road and heading for the Cambridge lines The 'south slow' turn into goods yards and a separate single platform conjoined to the NLL low level station Stratford station is mainly in the vee of 'slow' and Cambridge lines, so is the current P10 and P10A (old 9 and 10) with no platform on the up main or 'south slow' lines. As noted earlier, maybe no down main platform face either. There was a bay in the vee. So the 1949 'tube and electric lines' platforms 5-8 were built wholly south of the existing 4 lines on this 'south slow' route and yards, while the 'main lines' did not move at all in the station area. Only slewed over east of Stratford and at Bow. Hope that helps with historical context Bill Last edited: 26/05/2021 at 10:34 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 27/05/2021 at 08:19 #139742 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 139732 said:'KB can you expand on 'single line' ? I thought that the Bow - Gas Factory was double up to the 80's, and Bow Jn was a simple double lead - or do you refer to another single line ?Thank you for this Bill. It looks as if the 1949 alterations were even more extensive than I had imagined. (Incidentally, it looks as if the cartographer fought shy of trying to depict the full layout at the London End of P9... I suspect that was a serious bit of ironwork!) At the time of these maps, of course, the Main lines were the southernmost pair coming from Liverpool St and on through Maryland, with the other pair known (I believe) as the Local lines. The 'South Slow' seem pretty much to have connected the Gas Factory & N. Woolwich branches (with several connections between the various lines) and I note Stratford did have a platform serving the Up Main, not far from the location of the present platforms 3 - 8. What's not shown is Thornton Fields Carriage Sidings (shown as Thornton's Field in some documents) which were country side of the Northern Outfall and Marshgate Lane. Not sure when they were built but I believe they were there by the time the Jazz started in 1920, built on the site of a railway sports club whose land had been donated by Henry Thornton (a GER General Manager). (The Company donated land at Romford - or was it Harold Wood? - as a replacement.) At some point the 'South Slows' were reduced to a single line between Bow & Stratford. At some point (probably a different time altogether), two more tracks were added to the north of the Local lines (by 1949 named the Cambridge Lines). Just a little further east, two more tracks again were added (I don't recall their designation but I think they were signalled as goods lines); they started a little to the west of the connections from Bow Midland and ran through to Stratford. In 1949 the Cambridge Lines ran to platforms 11 & 12 and round the corner; the goods lines, meanwhile, ran round the back of P12 and (not sure of the layout) through/past Stratford Old Yard (the sidings north of P12). It's interesting that the Stratford map shows a couple of short spurs at Western Junction that would have been pretty much on the alignment of the Cambridge Lines; the GE was progressively widening its main line, so I wonder if the connections had already been laid in? Likewise there's an odd spur trailing in to the Bow Midland inlet which, with the headshunt/trap on the outlet, would be lined up for the Cambridge Lines. It seems not unlikely that the goods lines were laid in some time after the Cambridge Lines but that's purely speculative. At some point I suspect the whole lot was realigned. The Gas Factory branch remained double track until the DLR wanted part of it, and the Single Line from Bow to Stratford may well have been a 1949 provision (with Bow & Stratford panels slotting each other to work it) and everything else being shuffled across southward to fit. (The DLR took over the alignment of the Single Line when it was built.) The junctions at both ends were quite complex 'everywhere-to-everywhere' affairs which were indeed simplified very considerably in (I suspect) the early 1980s. There was certainly a significant realignment at Stratford to accommodate the 1949 platforms. I rather suspect the Down Main platform was cut back at that time (hence a station building backing right onto the Down Main in your pictures of yesterday) and the mains shuffled northward to make more room. All in all quite a story. Some of those old boxes must have been Bedlam, particularly with Sykes all round and the incredibly short sections. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bill_gensheet |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 27/05/2021 at 10:22 #139744 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Thanks, the single went just before I started paying attention. This also explains some of the gentle weaving about on the current layout. Bow DM - P10A - Maryland DM should be a straight line, the old down local. kbarber in post 139742 said: I note Stratford did have a platform serving the Up Main, not far from the location of the present platforms 3 - 8.I cannot see one, although up main did have access to the isolated two way 'south slow' platform somewhere around current P3A. I also agree something is not right on the drawing of the local pair ! Have tried to colour in the relevant lines on the attached.  Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 28/05/2021 at 08:13 #139766 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 139744 said:Thanks, the single went just before I started paying attention. This also explains some of the gentle weaving about on the current layout. Bow DM - P10A - Maryland DM should be a straight line, the old down local.Sorry Bill, you're quite right, I was a bit too cursory with my look at that area. However, a closer look at the layout suggests that platform was in fact up direction only, unless the connection to the North Woolwich curve was through a slip in the Down South Slow/Woolwich; at face value the map suggests it was through a diamond in the down to the up South Slow. I think (difficult to be sure without printing it off and identifying every line all the way through) the long crossover outside Central Junction Box also leads to an up line. If that's so, the only down connection is that crossover that starts just country side of the Low Level lines and trails into the Down Main just London side of the (I presume) platform canopy. A further look at the London end junctions of the Locals and the Cambridges suggests the intriguing possibility we may be seeing the layout as it was during stageworks for one of the widenings. It looks rather as if the Locals are accessed from the Mains, with crossovers back to the Locals just to the London side of the convergence, but with nascent connections laid in. Meanwhile, the Local-lines-to-be swing round through 11 & 12. Connecting up the odd end and unexpected crossover (Down Local through P10 and Up Cambridge/Local from P11) gives the later Local lines alignment while a slew of the Cambridges connects them with P11/12 instead of Old Yard. I wish my memory of Stratford panel was better, but I suspect that would accord with the junction layout that existed after 1949 and my sense is that little was changed over that side of the layout. I note the map is shown as 'revised 1914, published 1916'; I wonder when the track layout itself had last been surveyed, or if a detailed remapping was left for another revision, with just the addition of the Cambridges and the additional goods lines included? Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 28/05/2021 at 10:59 #139769 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Although these 25 inch OS are pretty good, they are not perfect especially when it comes to detail in railway areas. There are cases of photographic evidence contradicting the OS with no question of alterations in progress. GE were not exactly going to close the line for the OS surveyor. As such they either went by plans provided or what could readily be seen. I doubt that layout would be workable with only one down line for local and main. More likely I feel is that: Down local/CBG - down local track is missing in that scary 4 way point right on the vee of (1980s P11/P10) Up local - up local alignment suspect, maybe mislead by the up local - up main crossover Also I see a facing point down local to up goods at 'P13', so maybe that was an active platform for, say, parcels or milk ? Last edited: 28/05/2021 at 11:22 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 29/05/2021 at 18:04 #139782 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
OK, here is a SimSig version. Track looks right, some surveys either side are a bit better in detail and rendering. Signalling is pretty basic, I have just added what seemed right for where signals were shown. I have my doubts about what I have done for 'Midland Jn' box though. Single signal each line, not home and section ? For historical evolution, I recommend https://www.old-maps.co.uk/ They are trying to sell copies, but still viewable and so have more dates available, including a 1951, that just includes the new electric lines and the P5-8 islands. Bill 
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 29/05/2021 at 19:38 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 30/05/2021 at 17:43 #139794 | |
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kbarber
1742 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 139782 said:OK, here is a SimSig version. Brilliant stuff Bill. Just a few thoughts. West Curve and East Curve were (at least by 1976) Carpenters Road Curve and Channelsea Curve respectively. Central Junction Box was pretty much opposite the country end of the long crossover from the up platform line to the up goods. A big box as well. I suspect many boxes would have had just a home signal, not home & starter, so your surmise about 'Midland Jc' is probably right and could well be carried through a number of others. Around Western/Central/Eastern Jc there might even be slotted homes (with one box's home also acting as a starter for the box in rear). It certainly was done, and fairly common on the inner area of the GE (I've seen references in accident reports in the Spitalfields area and at Ilford West). I think every stop signal would have a distant slotted beneath it. I would expect each box to have an inner distant on the rear box section signal and then at least 2, probably 3 outer distants to give stopping distances at the speeds through the area. So distants could be slotted back through at least 2 rear boxes. (There was at least one instance of that on the Midland Main Line as late as 1978.) Provision of distants was likely to have been more generous too, with splitting distants even for fairly low speed (15mph) routes. It wasn't until after 1914 that large numbers of distants started to be abolished as an economy measure. Your diagram suggests even more strongly - to me, anyway - that the lines you've labelled as Goods Lines probably were the nascent Cambridge Lines, aligning nicely with P11/12 and the existing connections out of the Locals becoming another set of Xovers. What an area to try & simulate, eh? Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 30/05/2021 at 21:16 #139800 | |
Guts
604 posts |
jc92 in post 139701 said:Greenford still has semaphores, but it doesn't work absolute block anymore, its Track Circuit in all directionsWillesden Carriage Shed North and South both still have semaphore signals, including disc shunting signals. The only colour light signals are shunt signals [normally slotted by the Carriage supervisor] Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 31/05/2021 at 12:16 #139810 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
kbarber in post 139794 said:I think otherwise, the now Cambridge lines were the former Local and 'Woolwich' became Electrics. Surprisingly little changed on the down/north side even to 199 with the same pointwork for Carpenters Road, a junction with Cambridge and 4 diamonds over the Goods lines. The main realignment looks to have been at Bow and Maryland aided by the real life curvatures there. Will be doing an update as I'd missed Central Jn. box As for simulations, some aspects of the timetable look fun too. There were (1922) Fenchurch St - Ongar crossing the whole layout at a fair frequency and some Ilford - Stratford short workings. regards Bill Log in to reply |
| A little Mock-SimSig Fun! 31/05/2021 at 14:52 #139812 | |
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bill_gensheet
1413 posts |
Image from Stratford Central Jn looking west/up Signalman had a mirror to see trains coming. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimg/QVNIMTIwMDY3Nzcx.jpg?&width=640 August 1923: A mirror helps the signalman looking down the old Great Eastern line from Stratford Central station. The view from the signalbox was obscured by the waiting room roof and chimney stacks. The Channelsea curve is on the right, giving connections to the North London Railway at Victoria Park, and the Cambridge main line near Loughton Branch Junction. The N7 0-8-2T reflected in the mirror is one of those built at Stratford to AJ Hill's design, while in the background a B12 4-5-0 and a tank engine - possibly a J69 0-6-0T - stand alongside trains of very mixed empty stock. (Photo by Hulton Archive/Getty Images) Also https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-GER-STRATFORD-CENTRAL-JUNCTION-DIAGRAM-OF-SIGNALS-C1919-/193542740429 Bill 
Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 31/05/2021 at 15:01 by bill_gensheet Reason: More useful links Log in to reply The following user said thank you: kbarber |
